Building Families: The Surrogate's Perspective with Ashley Mareko

In this episode, Jacqueline offers a rich tapestry of content, beginning with an intimate look into the world of surrogacy through the eyes of Ashley Mareko, a seasoned surrogate and expert. Ashley shares her multifaceted journey, covering everything from the emotional aspects and ethical considerations of surrogacy to the science and success rates behind it, drawing from her roles both as a surrogate and as the director at SurrogateFirst. Highlighting the need for careful agency selection and the impact of technological advancements in IVF, her insight provides an invaluable resource for potential surrogates.

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•  Leave a review for the podcast
• Apply to be a guest on the show
• Connect with Ashley Mareko and SurrogateFirst

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00:00 Welcome and Personal Updates: Preparing for a Newborn

01:33 The Heart of Motherhood Intended: Podcast Goals and Surrogacy Awareness

03:03 Introducing Ashley Mareko: A Surrogate's Journey

05:17 Ashley's Personal Surrogacy Experience: From First Steps to Family Growth

21:30 The Surrogacy Process: Insights and Expectations

23:18 The Role of Surrogacy Agencies: Support and Guidance

29:41 Understanding Surrogacy Requirements

32:02 The Emotional and Physical Journey of Surrogacy

33:28 The Rigorous Screening Process for Surrogates

35:44 The Science Behind High Success Rates in Surrogacy

46:23 Navigating the Emotional Landscape of Surrogacy

57:01 Advice for Potential Surrogates: Research and Support

Transcript

 Hey friends, I hope you're having a good week. Outside of working on the podcast, I have spent the week just reorganizing and redoing two of the rooms in our house. I don't know if it's like spring cleaning that I have like the itch to do or if it's just pure panic,  that in a month we will have a newborn and then I will not have any time to do these projects.

But they had to get done and that's where I've been spending any spare time this week, which is hilarious because spare time really is just means like staying up late and doing projects.  But my husband and I have been working on our bedroom and our office. So our bedroom was just we wallpapered a wall.

We are decluttering and moving furniture around in there. We moved the Peloton into our room and moved out some other pieces of furniture and then our. Office is a shared office between both of us. So we are just kind of reconfiguring that to make it work best for both of us going forward and get that all organized and decluttered.

So we are setting ourselves up for success. When the baby is here and,  Yeah, it's, it's exciting. It's a lot, but,  I think I'm getting like a little nervous about just how everything's going to change. I know anyone listening who is a mom can relate, you know, we go through these seasons where things shift a little bit and it's not for better.

It's not for worse. It's just different, right? Our family dynamics shift a little bit, our priorities shift, and I could not be more excited and blessed to be stepping into this of welcoming another baby into our family. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little nervous about how things are going to change.

You know, I've figured out in the last year and a half with this podcast, a pretty good rhythm, and I have goals and ideas for the future with motherhood intended. So I really have been buckling down to get organized, to record ahead of time, to have a specific plan moving forward, because I will not let this show go to the wayside. It is really important to me. I've worked hard on it and I love coming to you every week with new guests. and new topics and connecting with even more women as they navigate their journeys through infertility and motherhood.

So consider this like a public promise to you that the podcast will go on despite my family growing. And of course I can't wait to bring you along for the ride. So get excited. I have put together a plan for the rest of the year on what I want to accomplish for you guys. And I even started working on a five year plan for the show because I've got some big ideas, so stay tuned. And as always, thanks for sticking with me and tuning in every week.

Now, I do want to remind you that Season 3 will wrap up at the end of April, and then I will be taking May, June, and July off.  I did this last year with a break in between Seasons 1 and 2. I kind of took the summer off. Mostly for child care purposes.

You know, my kids are home in the summer. But also just, you know, to take a break and refresh and get ahead for the next season. So I'm constantly making sure I'm sourcing the best guests and putting my best foot forward. So this year I am moving it up a month.  Instead of taking off June, July, August, I'm going to move it up a month since our daughter is due April 17th.

Which is coming up quick. Okay. So as I've mentioned, it is surrogacy awareness month. So today's episode, I'm bringing you a conversation that I had with Ashley Americo, who is a four time surrogate.

Ashley is the director at Surrogate First, and she's going to talk to me about her experience as a surrogate, both on the personal side and professional side, working with other surrogates. And she's going to talk a little bit about the high transfer success rates and just kind of the whole process for surrogacy.

It was a really eye opening conversation for me  just taking a deeper dive from the other perspective of a surrogacy journey from the surrogate.  And I really hope that this episode can shine some light on maybe some questions you had surrounding surrogacy.

If there's something in this episode that you want to dive into further,  of course, I have Ashley's contact info in the show notes, but you can also reach out to me as well. I'm an open book with our whole experience working with the surrogacy agency, everything we've gone through, you know, we are inching towards the end of our journey. And I'm always happy to share our experience up until this point,

Before we get to my interview with Ashley, I just want to remind you to check the show notes. I encourage you to connect with the Motherhood Intended community. You can join us in the Facebook group.

Follow along on Instagram at motherhood underscore intended and most importantly, click the follow button on the podcast. This will make sure that all new episodes pop up right in your queue as they're live. This will be especially important in between seasons because I am known to put out some bonus episodes, even though I say I'm taking a break in between season three and season four. Let's be real. I'm not going to let three months go by without you hearing from me. So you'll want to hit that follow button to make sure that you don't miss an episode. 

If after listening to this episode, or if it's been on your heart for a while, you have the feeling that, hey, you know what? I would love to help deserving people become parents and I have an awesome pregnancy. I love being pregnant. How can I help

take that first step and learn more about becoming a surrogate  as you'll hear in this episode, there are qualifications and right off the bat, you can see if it's an option for you or not.

I promise you it's the greatest gift of all that you can give somebody. And if you're interested and you feel this on your heart, click the link in the show notes. And learn more about the process and see if you're a candidate you can even make up to 650 just by taking those first few simple steps. Okay. Here's my episode with Ashley We recorded a couple months ago, And I'm so excited for you to hear it. Take a listen 

  Hi Ashley, welcome to the show. 

Hi, thank you so much for having me here. 

Yeah, I'm so excited, , to have your help and just, you know, talk about surrogacy from the point of view of someone who has been a surrogate four times. Now you are a mom, you are very educated in this field. So I'm just excited to hear your story and pick your brain given the fact that it's surrogacy awareness month, it's just a beautiful opportunity for us to start our journey. Spread knowledge around surrogacy because I think it can not be talked about enough. I mean, I know myself before we decided that that was going to be our path to growing our family. I knew nothing other than like, I thought literally surrogacy was like for, you know, Celebrities and people who just like didn't feel like being pregnant. So I have learned a lot in my own journey, but there is always more to learn.  I'm so intrigued as to what got you into surrogacy. 

Yeah. So kind of like you, I had never heard of surrogacy. I grew up on a, on an island in Hawaii. And so to me, I had never heard about it. And when we moved to the, we call it the mainland, the continental U. S. We dealt with secondary infertility, male factor, and so we had already had three children total. I have my bonus daughter and then, you know, our son and daughter. And I wanted to have another child and our youngest was five and we found out we weren't going to be able to without assistance.

And so I spent about two years pretty bitter watching everybody else get pregnant when I wanted to grow my family and one day I kind of got kicked on my butt with you know, just in my heart. It was kind of like, well, aren't you thankful for the ones you have? Because there's people that are struggling to have, you know, any child.

And at that same time, we had a friend who was going through chemo and had created embryos and they weren't sure if she was going to carry. And I thought.  Well, shoot. I mean, I had, you know, easy pregnancies and births. I'll just carry your babies. Which is a strange, you know, thing to say to your friend, like, Hey, like, if you need it, you can have my womb.

 She was like, I don't know how this would work. Like, would you have a weird, like connection with a baby? We don't even know legal stuff. I was just like, I'll just carry your baby. I don't know what we do, but let's just do it. And so we discussed and we thought, okay, how about I go and be a surrogate for a stranger and I'll learn everything so that we can, you know, maybe do an independent journey and we'll save money and, you know, at that point, I didn't really understand the compensation. I thought like if parents would just like pay for like, Massages and chiropractor and be the most yeah pregnancy ever like yeah I really thought it was just something you do because you like being pregnant and and obviously that's number one for surrogates and so I went off and and I had a really rough time. It took about two years to become a surrogate  Because of requirements because I did not have the information they have now, you know back 10 years ago There weren't all these groups telling you like hey These are red flags with an agency or these are red flags with parents and so forth Kind of jumped in with these big old deer eyes and learned fairly quickly that that wasn't necessarily the case And so took about two years and then I started my first journey.  I loved the family We really connected mom ended up having miracle babies. So the boys were three weeks apart after five years of failed IVF So we were 

oh my gosh.  Yeah. Yeah. What a unique experience. 

Oh my gosh. It's it's it was crazy It was And I remember her calling me and apologizing, like, I'm so sorry, like, I still want the baby you're carrying, you know, like, like, she didn't want me to think less of myself. And I was like, No, you're taking this baby like, 

yeah, 

which goes, Okay, good, like you I want both of them. I'm like,  Yeah, they're yours. Like, it doesn't lessen what I'm doing. You know, we just carry the burden together so that, you know, I, my body wasn't going to carry twins. So she got her twins in the end.

Yeah, there you go. 

Yeah, so that was kind of the beginning of it was just I wanted to help. At the end of that journey, my friend who had went through chemo, let me know that she had done an IVF transfer, an embryo transfer, and she was pregnant. And so they were one and done.  We're like, okay, well, I learned all of this, but they don't need me anymore. So I just kept having babies for that same family. 

Wow. That's that. What a story. Like, that's so funny that, but obviously at the root of which is common in the certain, I know my surrogate and others, it's like, you just had that need to like, want to help other people. And it just.  You obviously realize that, like, it didn't matter if it was your friend or someone you knew or not. It started from that and like blossomed into  helping this family and another family. And that's just so cool. 

And, you know, honestly, so in my role, well, you know, with my career I, I do a lot of intake interviews with surrogates and parents. And the majority of surrogates, if not like all of them, there's a very small percentage that's not, but they either have had a family member or a friend that dealt with infertility but couldn't afford surrogacy, or surrogacy wasn't the right way, or maybe they got pregnant in the end and they didn't need someone to carry their baby, and now this is their way they feel to offset an off balance.

anyone struggling with fertility. So I may have not been able to help, you know, X, Y, and Z, but I can help another family, which in the end, that's the same community. And that's what I see a lot of people. They feel like this is one way I can help the community that struggles with fertility. 

Yeah, I love that so much. That is so cool. I know as an intended parent, that's exactly what we were looking for.  While my husband and I have two sons at home you know, it was after many, many years of infertility and hospital stays and surgeries and loss. And you know, we were just really hoping to find that.

Special person who understood like the heartache, because I remember thinking like myself, I was like, well, we do have two kids already. And we had these embryos, which is why we decided surrogacy was our best option to grow our family. And I don't know, I felt like I need to find someone who understands how important this is to us, even though we already have children.

And it's just so special when you find that person who just understands like what kind of what you've been through and you can, they can feel. What's your feeling to some degree? 

Yeah, I definitely understand that one. My parents have one more. I called them my parents, but my intended parents now my friends they have One more embryo.

And we had committed at the beginning to use all their embryos. We just didn't realize they would stick. So some people are like, carry three times for a family, potentially four. And I'm like, well, we said we'd use all the embryos. We just didn't know my uterus was that fluffy. Like we just,  so we're like, we might as well give them a shot.

We don't want to leave them frozen. 

Yeah. That's so interesting. That's really, that's really cool. So, okay. How old are the surrogate babies that you've carried this far? 

Yeah. So  we have eight.  Five three and nine months. 

Oh my gosh when you started this journey? Did you ever think that you would carry that many times or someone else you just it's been  Yeah, 

oh, I mean it in my heart when I was a child and growing up I always felt like I was going to have six children.

Yeah, 

Polynesian families And so, you know big families is such a blessing and it's amazing to look back and see see that, like, my body was able to birth six children. They're just not my children, you know? 

Yeah. 

So that's been really cool to see  full circle, like, oh, I always thought I would have six and now it's even better.

Like, I'm going to be honest, and  as a surrogate who has a relationship with the parents,  kind of like having, like, grandkids where, like,  I'm separate. I don't have any financial responsibility. They're not my children. We see each other here and there. I give them candy. I give them toys. I'm exhausted. I go home like the parents have the tough job. I just grew them for nine months. Like they've got now 25 years that they've got to raise them. 

Right. Right. That's so true. I never thought about it like that. So you're local. You and the family are local then to each other or no. 

No, so they were in China when we started all of this. We actually like at one point moved into their house for like a month and like experienced China and them. 

Oh, cool. 

They would come and stay at our house. So we kind of just done that. We do a lot of WeChat and videos and things, and we had hoped every other year to do like a cool vacation with each other, but COVID hit, you know, in 2020, that made things a lot more difficult.

Sure. 

Hopefully this year we'll go to Singapore with them and, and visit and get to check it out and be tourists. It's,  it's a good time to see how they're living and then they're gonna come to Hawaii and see it. 

That's so awesome. Yeah. I love that. I think that's another misconception too, is that like everyone I know, when I started telling, you know, friends and and family that we were gonna be going through surrogacy, you know, everyone just assumes that like they'd be local. And I even assumed that I was like, well, obviously we would have somebody nearby. I mean, how does that work? And I quickly realized was working with our agency and everything that  more likely than not, she probably won't be local to us.

And so that's been a new experience for sure. But thank God for technology. You know, we are able to FaceTime and  she's been here a couple of times. We've been there a couple of times. And Yeah, I just think that I was not, that was not on my radar either. When going through this, I was like, I have to find someone who lives like down the street. I don't know. Like, 

and I, I chose an international couple because as someone who had career and a family and my kids were,  my  son was in high school, my daughter was in middle school, like. I had such a busy life that I knew that I could keep their baby safe. I could grow their baby. We could have a relationship, but I didn't keep in contact with my best friends on a weekly basis and I wasn't sure how someone living down the road, I mean.

I always tell parents I'd be the worst intended parent. Like, I don't know how not to like, go look in your windows and the bushes. Like I have control issues, right? It's great to carry your baby. Cause I have control issues and I want to keep the environment the best. But as an intended parent, I didn't know how mom would be because I know I would be crazy.

Yeah.  That's really funny. That's like totally that crossed my mind too, because at first I felt weird, like.  my baby being so far away from me. But then I was like, I, I'm busy too. I mean, I have a young family. My boys are four and five and we're all over the place. My husband travels for work and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'd feel so weird if I like, didn't make the time to go spend an X amount of time with her or um, same thing, you know, having control and just like bothering her all the time.

So. I think there's something to be said for the distance and  our surrogate too, she has a seven and eight year old. She has her own children and busy life. And so  it works out very well. I think everyone's situation is different, but I, I get what you're saying for sure.

No, and I think that's the amazing thing about surrogacy time and time you're going to see, there's no, like, as long as it's ethical. There's no wrong way. There's no wrong relationship, you know, like it, the, where it goes bad is when people aren't  transparent with each other.

Like this is what I'm looking for in this relationship or this experience and this is what I'm looking for.  And as long as people have consent and they understand, you know, what they're getting into, that's where it's, it's beautiful no matter what people's comfort levels are. And I think that's it. People get worried about, Oh, well you didn't have the same journey. Well, no, no one has the same journey.  

I think that's super important to remember, especially like with social media and more and more women and moms and surrogates sharing their journeys like on Instagram and stuff. You know, I, I  initially scrolled those feeds because I'm curious and,  want to be educated and be in that community.

But then sometimes I found myself, yeah, comparing like our journey or my relationship with our surrogate to someone else. And there is definitely no one size fits all. It's all personal to your life, your surrogate's life, what you're both looking for. And yeah, I learned pretty quickly that being transparent and being upfront and setting expectations from the start  feels like the biggest way to have a successful relationship with your surrogate.

Yeah, I always tell surrogates, unintended parents, like as a surrogate, we go into this to If our family grows in the end, then that's a blessing and that's a benefit, but we can't expect that because our job here was to help a family grow. And so, you know, definitely three journeys were amazing.   Fourth one, which was actually the third, it didn't go that way.

And I had to really self examine like, am I here to grow up someone's family or was I doing this for my own self? Like, was I doing this for what I get out of it and the  good feelings and things. And so. It really was a time where I realized like, okay, I'm here to grow a family, you know, and sometimes 

That's a really good way to put it. I like that i've never thought about it like that that that's like a bonus if you know That you're here to help they're here to help somebody and in the end if you guys Stay close or whatever it is that makes so much sense  it takes  the pressure off.  I've had all these like ideas in my head of what I thought this relationship should be like, just because of like, it's such a big,  I can't believe this other human is like helping us and carrying our baby and bringing her into the world.

And I'm just like, You feel like nothing's ever, I'm like, I don't know what to say. I remember the first time we met for lunch. I was like, I know we just met, but I feel like I just need to like hug you and squeeze you because you're just like, I can't believe you're doing this. But again, it's all just like situational and it's a very special, unique situation for sure. And I'm so grateful that surrogacy exists and there are people out there willing to help others because I'm still like dumbfounded that, you know, That there are people that will do this for others. 

Like, oh, sign me up. I'll carry your baby. 

Yeah. Yeah. Especially coming from the point of view. I mean, everyone has a different path that leads them to surrogacy. But like my point of view with all this pregnancy has just never been easy for me. My body has never cooperated. There's been one thing after another. And so to watch her go through pregnancy and just, Be happy and healthy and it's just it's amazing. It's pretty cool 

I felt guilty about that with my intended mom, you know, because she had struggled with so many losses And yeah, I remember her telling me like Ashley this relationship. No one is above the other like I was blessed be able to help you and your family. It allowed my children to go to private school. It allowed us to, you know, change the trajectory of our family and I was blessed being able to have a pregnancy that was safe for her baby. And so it was kind of one of these things where we realized like we needed each other to better our lives.

And that kind of takes away like the, the, I know she kind of felt guilty too sometimes of like, Oh, you're carrying my baby. And I'm like, but you're blessing me. Like I feel just as blessed as you, you've been able to help me get to the goals that I needed and student debt paid off and like so many different things that allowed my family to have a better future while being able to help her grow her family and she has, you know, has her children. And so it's, it's definitely a beautiful relationship and  I would think one of the most mutual benefiting relationships I've ever come into. 

  I love that you put it that way. You're just saying everything that's on my brain, but like wording it in a much better way. Like, these are definitely thoughts I've had and things we've talked about, but I just have never packaged it that way and thought of it like that, you know?

It's It is a mutual beneficial relationship. And I feel like a lot of times you can kind of like not talk about certain things. The fact that like a surrogate does get paid, cause you feel like it feels awkward, but really it's not.  You said, it's mutually beneficial. Both of our lives are being enriched by helping each other.

And that's the truth. It's not so like  black and white of. Oh, you can't have a baby. I can, you know, I'm it's just, it doesn't have to be that way because that's not how I feel in my heart. I just never know how to like articulate it. So I like that a lot. 

Yeah. I had a lot of shame the first one because I was doing it. Like, I felt like I was called to do it. It was my ministry. I was going to just help people grow babies. But I was embarrassed about the money because I felt like it was going to take away, like. Oh, well, you're not really doing it from your heart, you know, yeah, I so I was very, you know, cautious about that.

And then when I talked with my mom, my, my intended mother, I was like, you're right. Like, it's okay that I'm compensated. Doctors get compensated. Like, right. I'm was a preschool teacher, you know for a Christian school. And I was like, I definitely get compensated. Not like, you know, I get the pennies in the love of Jesus. Like, you know, like, it doesn't deter. doing something good and helping someone just because you're compensated for that time and that risk and that. So yeah, I've definitely come to, you know, to understand that not embarrassed  

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Absolutely. At what point did you, cause you're a program director a surrogate program director for surrogate first amongst other coaching and things, what led you to take surrogacy to the next level? I mean, this has been a part of your life now in different ways for a while. 

Yeah. So even though I carried for the same family my first journey was with another agency  were great. Like they didn't do anything wrong. But. You know, coming from the island, then service is so intimate that I needed more of a connection.

And so I had explained to my intended mother that I would love to carry again for them, but I didn't want to go back to that agency. And so at that time, Lena, our founder at surrogate first, she had, you know, she was an IVF concierge, so she was helping the mom and she had went through, you know, surrogacy herself for her, her children.

And she had just healed from a major surgery. And she's like, well, I can represent you guys. Yeah. So when we met and talked, she saw something in me and she's like, Hey, you want to be my assistant? You know, for a concierge service? I said, yeah. And within six months we opened surrogate first. So we decided we were going to do something different.

We wanted to like,  I wanted it to be mind, body, and soul. I wanted everyone to feel like they were part of the family. You know, obviously a professional manner, but I wanted people to feel like they mattered, that it wasn't a number that we got to know families, we got to know their families. Something more to take care of our nutrition and diet and excess mental health like, but in a comfortable setting.

'cause sometimes when you're in more of a doctor setting, you won't admit you're struggling with things. And so I wanted women to feel comfortable and safe to say, Hey, I am struggling right now, you know, with the hormones or the medications. And so we kind of just built it up. And five years later, well almost six years later here we're

Awesome. So that's kind of where I started was just the hustle. I ended up, you know, leaving teaching and. The the agency just kept growing and growing and and now we're Gosh, I want to say we're at least  15 staff members full. It's been insane. It's been a wild ride. 

That's awesome and very needed. I love that approach to having everyone feel like their family because, yeah, it's hard to open up and be honest with something that's so important when it feels like very clinical.

So, and that's like, Yes, like that's part of what surrogacy is, you know, obviously there's science and IVF and things involved, but it's like way more than that. And mostly it's relationship and family and understanding and just feeling comfortable is like the biggest thing that comes to mind. And so that's such a need and very cool that it's. It's just been blossoming from there. 

Yeah. Yeah. And I love the process, you know? So my goal is always to end up being like the Walmart greeter of the company where I just kind of go around handing out stickers and like loving on people. And so after five years, we're starting to get more and more into that.

That's like hospitality is my gift. And so we just came back from a five day cruise with like 15 surrogates, which was like cool to like have these like little mini vacays and get to love on people. And so. Yeah, my dreams are coming true. Teaching and like eating and like it works out great. 

That's amazing. Yeah. What a great combination. I love that. 

Yeah. Yeah. It's been, it's been amazing. And I know that like the process is long, you know, that a lot of people don't realize how long the surrogacy processes and how important it is to like understand it. And yeah. You know, from every step, it's kind of like extreme married at first sight. Cause you're like,  you're going to grow my baby. Okay. And then like the next week you're moving forward. Like, 

Oh my gosh, that's exactly it. And I did not know when we, what we were getting into, to be completely honest, like everything, it felt like waiting.  Wherever everything was in slow motion and until it wasn't and then I'm like blinking and our baby's doing like two months.

So I'm like, I don't it's wild. And we, we started looking into surrogacy pretty soon after our last loss, which was September 2021. And by January, I started Googling surrogacy and what that looked like. We had had conversations with our maternal fetal medicine doctor and What that look going forward looked like for me and you know, that's when he was like, it is just not safe for you to carry a pregnancy.

You have Children at home. You're at high risk for so many things. And so with a quick Google search and you know, this was 20. 22, but still, you know, backed up, I think from COVID which, you know, added , longer wait times for everything getting matched. And so once I Googled really quickly, I was like, Oh, this is going to be a journey, like a process.

It's not just like get matched, have a baby. It was a while. So by the time we signed with an agency and then it took 11 months, I think for us to get matched. And You know, then there's the whole screening process and everything and the transfer. And so by the time our daughter's born, it'll be like  two years and a few months from the second we were like, let's do surrogacy.

So I don't think we were like deep down fully ready to jump into the journey, but knowing how long it was going to take we just wanted to get the process going. So I've been learning along the way, you know, since the second we said, yes, let's do this. I, It's can be overwhelming, but there's a lot to it.

Oh, yeah. I always tell parents two years, you know, like planning these two years because you've got, you know, zero to 12 months from matching times depending on now, a little quicker right now, but.  You know, and then you've got one month for your clinic to review records and  one to two months for her to get in for medical screening and one to two months for legal and then one to two months for prepping for the, you know, transfer and then you have nine months of pregnancy, you know, and then you've got closing of escrow. People don't realize then it's gathering all of the medical bills and all of those things and making sure they get close to, you can get your finances back. Like it's a long process. 

Yeah, that was the other part I was not prepared for either. It's just like all I'm going to say like the administrative side of all of it, because at first we were like, what, why don't we do an independent journey?

You know, we were already very overwhelmed with just all the different Like costs and expenses that we just weren't aware of before diving into this. And and so we're like, let's just try and save money. We can find, I'm very, you know, I used to be a community manager and I'm really good at networking and you know, my husband's in sales, like, well, surely we can like network and find someone who will help our family.

And that was like the least of our worries. I was just overwhelmed more of like. The legal stuff and just all the different check marks that there are to be done in the process. And so that's when we were like, okay, you know what, we've been through a lot. We have two little boys at home. We are working. It's a lot to manage. So that's when we decided to reach out, you know, to an agency for help, because there's a lot that goes into it that you don't realize.  

Yeah. And even for surrogates, like I know for myself, after my first journey, I was like, Oh, I could totally do this on my own. And then we started the agency like, good Lord, it's like an agency is like a duck on a pond.

Like you're like, Oh, the water's just going off their back. Like I could totally do this. Right. And then you get in and you're like, your feet are paddling under, there's so much more than even what public sees. And so, yeah, it's been, it's been very intense learning you know, for sure. And even on the matching side, like I joke around that it's easier to get into an ivy league school than to be a surrogate.

Yeah Most agencies have like a five maybe ten percent acceptance rate. Yeah, that's not from being like super strict It's just the criterias and everything that's needed to To to have an ethical surrogacy to protect the surrogate and the baby and the family We've got standards we have to live by. 

Yeah, which is like a lot of people don't realize that either is just what that criteria looks like, you know, a lot of people are like, oh like so she can get pregnant and i'm like wait what like  That's there's so many things. I haven't looked it up in a while But what is like the the main criteria for anyone who doesn't know like to become a surrogate what? What do they look for? 

Yeah, so there's, the main organization is ASRM or American Society  and they have their standard, you know, guidelines and then agencies will have, follow that and clinics will follow that and some will be a little stricter and that kind of thing.

So basically what it looks like is from the ASRM standpoint is someone who's 21 to 45 they have had a child in the last seven years. They're between like an 18 to 32 BMI, whether or not I agree with BMI is like, that is a requirement. I have to lose 40 pounds my first surrogacy to be able to be one.

As a U. S. citizen you're in a surrogate friendly state. So like Nebraska, Louisiana, and Michigan, we stay out of. But for the other states, it's pretty safe for you to be a surrogate. You can't be on any government financial support or you have to be financially stable and that's a tough one for people to understand.

But again, it's just to make sure that, you know, that the money is not needed. Your child, your family will not go without that. If you were to be off of food stamps or welfare and you didn't get pregnant, there's no guaranteed pay. And so we want to make sure people don't end up, you know, out of their houses or not having food.

You have to have a healthy reproductive history. I've never heard of a perfect pregnancy. Yeah, some of us get close, but there's no perfect. So we want to make sure that there's not preeclampsia, hypertension, gestational diabetes with medication, you know, things that could put both parties at risk.

Sometimes as an agency, we have to make those tough calls where even as a surrogate, your heart may want to become a surrogate, but it might not be best for all parties. And so we have to make that call to say, hey obviously, you know, no long, like no past drug use of addiction.  You know, that you've been off of mental health medications for less than a year and was a situational hormonal.

So there's a lot of things just looking at what's the safest environment. No crime sprees. You know, sometimes we were young and we had a misdemeanor and we did something stupid when we were young. But no, no crime streets, no,  you know, things like that. Basically I tell women, would you feel safe?

Would you feel comfortable if someone with your exact history was carrying your child? And if you would, then you'd be a good candidate for surrogacy. If you have any questions, you reach out, you ask questions. Most of my day is just talking about requirements with women.  Yeah,  it's really helpful though.

I didn't, I, I think I knew like the obvious ones, but things that never crossed my mind was like, yeah, like having a child of your own is, is a requirement. I don't know if that's standard or if that's per agency, but okay.

Number one, that and a long enough distance between your last child so that you know.

Yeah, okay. That makes sense. 

Obviously not a smoker, you know,  obvious health stuff, basic, yeah, basic health things. And then, yeah. And the thing for the child, you know, having a child prior previously is most people don't know that they're struggling with fertility until they try to have a child.

And so having someone who's never had it, or also the fact of like, it's still hormones, your body's still created to bond and to connect. And then afterwards to not have a child and go home without a child could be. You know, that could put a lot of additional emotional toll on someone and so yeah, double, you know, I went home and had my children, you know, like at the house, I went back into my normal life. So it was a pretty quick. Transition of like balancing out those hormones and getting back to work.  

That's a really good point. Definitely something I'm glad that's like something that's top of mind, because I feel like that was one of the first questions that like family members would ask me, they're like, well, how do you know, she's not going to feel a certain way about keeping the baby and things like this.

And I had to explain, you know,   And our surrogate has this is her second time being a surrogate and that was comforting too, because she's been like guiding us along this process as well. But you know, I'm like, there's psych evaluations for her and for us, you know, this is new for us too.

And it's just important. There's things that you've never thought about, even if you're like, I would love to do this for somebody, but. without being in it before, you know, I think it's important that these precautions are in place.  

And I think that'd be good to touch on, you know, as parents, I have, you know, a lot of parents have the same concerns. How do I know she's not going to use drugs and alcohol with my pregnancy, you know? And so in the screening process, you know, we were talking, obviously we're going to talk a little later about like the success rates and things, but in the screening process of surrogacy you know, a surrogate traditionally, and this is pretty average.

So while I'm speaking of my agency it's pretty average along the agencies, but they do an initial application. They do a full application. There's an interview with an, you know, with a coordinator to make sure like everything's, you know, understood. responsibility you know, commitment, compensation, it's all went over in that meeting.

And then we start the screening process. So that's like background checks, drug panels, psychological evaluation, medical records are  gathered and then reviewed by a nurse. There is a home evaluation, there's multiple interviews, like all of these items just before a parent even sees the profile. Now there is a screening on parents, you know, but that's to that point.

And then once a parent and a surrogate agree on their profile, Records are sent to the clinic, and the clinic then reviews them to make sure it looks like a, you know, viable candidate, and that she's going to be safe for pregnancy. And then she still has to go back to the clinic for FDA labs, and usually a histosonogram,  or an SIS, like, they're checking the lining of the uterus, they're looking at her labs, they're making sure her TSH levels and vitamin D levels are, are acceptable, because a lot of times, what we Well, you know, what women don't realize is we have acceptable rates and then there's acceptable levels for IVF And so a lot of women are like I've never had a TSH issue.

Well for IVF, we've got to have it below a 2 So yeah, you have to go on a thyroid med and no one really checks their vitamin D levels But majority of us are like low and that could be a chance at success like it's really amazing like all that we have to go through and and the medications and Yeah, 

it's  complex for sure. It's not a simple process. Even if, you know, the circuit has gotten pregnant easily on her own and had an easy, quote unquote, easy pregnancy. This is totally different. There are so many checks and balances. to not only keep, you know, the surrogate safe and but you know, for success, like to set this up for success.

Which is like you mentioned, one of the things I wanted to pick your brain about too, is, you know, like the screening and medical protocols that are in place for surrogates. What is it about everything that kind of leads to these such, such high success rates in surrogacy, as opposed to just like,  I don't know, somebody else doing IVF. 

 Definitely. I would say one is the screening process, right? So you have,  the ASRM,  organization with their guidelines, and then you've got agencies with their guidelines and clinics with their guidelines. And so you could, you know, do an IVF you know, you could, you could do IVF on yourself and not meet any of the surrogate guidelines, right?

And so that's the difference. Like surrogates have to be to  a higher standard for a higher chance of sick. There's no joke. Anyone who's, you know, been a listener of your podcast knows like IVF and surrogacy and all of these things. They're definitely not your first pick, right? And then, and they're very expensive. 

And so the doctor's job, the agency's job is to minimize the risk Sometimes when you do an independent journey, I've seen, you know, clinics be a little more lax on  those requirements or those guidelines, but when you're going through an agency we have to stand by those because.

We have that duty to our parents,  that we do right by them And so I think that is the number one and then a lot of the checking so we're taking a woman who hasn't had any issues with fertility and then we're going to put her into like an IVF situation and so You know the medications everything is coming down to like the science of it, right levels are checked on a regular basis Linings are checked on a regular basis.

 There's such a large team looking for every aspect so that when you get to the point of transfer They've maximized,  the success as much as possible but also technology side of it. So not only with the surrogate, but I've done a couple of webinars with some of the doctors like Dr.

K is probably one of the smartest doctors I've ever met over at Fertility Center of Las Vegas. And she talked about the technology of like the flash freezing that's happening now. And so previously, you know, you would freeze your eggs and and then saw them to create embryos and the freeze it back up.

And everyone thought like. Oh, it lowers the,  success when you take  an egg and, and freeze it back and into an embryo and defrost it or whatever it is. But now they've got this flash freezing where they're not seeing a difference with like the frozen egg and the success rate. And so you've got that going on.

I think PG testing that used to not be as popular, but the pregenetic testing they have going on now. And check down to like 95 percent of homosomal abnormalities and whether an embryo is abnormal or normal. And normally in pregnancy,  we're just fertilizing, you know, like in, in an average pregnancy, you're just an egg and a sperm in the uterus and it's, it's fertilized  and a lot of times when we miscarry, there can be an abnormality with that embryo that our body has expelled you know, early on in the pregnancy. But with IVF. They are able to check and see that they're using the healthiest embryos to get the best chance of success. 

Science is so crazy. That's, it's wild. And the advances that are always happening is, is insane. I did not know that about the flash freezing. Is that something, is that just with like, say, if you're freezing your eggs or the, is that something that is like, say with embryos too?

Yeah. 

Oh, wow. 

Yeah. So it's with all of it. They've really, you know, and obviously I'm dumbing it down because that's how I explain it and how my brain works. 

Yeah. No. Appreciate it. 

But, but yeah, there's some really amazing technologies that are going on with, with all of that to, to raise the chance of success. But I do want to give like a little side note, cause I think it's always important to understand, like, even with the most healthy, perfect uterus and healthy, perfect embryos, it's still not a hundred percent, you know, there's still that. Right. That factor of you know, they haven't gotten it to 100 and, and sometimes I take comfort in that knowing like, okay, we're, you know, we're, we're going through this, but we still have to, you know, wish the best and pray the best, you know, like that.

Right. 

Still another factor to this that, that comes into play. Cause I know some people are like, well, you've taken, you know, you've taken the God factor out. Yeah. We haven't, you know, we've helped,  people who are dealing with, you know, fertility issues, but there's still that factor involved in all of this.

Yeah, it's like you're putting the best foot forward in every way that you can, but there's no way to control at all. It's either gonna happen or it's not. Yeah, the genetic testing, I don't know if this is standard for every agency, but I know with ours and I remember being Surprised because  when we did IVF, that was back in 2017 and the getting pregnant with IVF part for me was, each transfer worked with both my sons.

It was just carrying my pregnancy that was like horrific but, We didn't test at that point. I was young. My fertility doctor was like, you know, you, neither of you have like a history of certain things. You're young. Like, I don't think it's necessary if you don't want to do it at that, at that time. I have a different opinion on that now.

I think I still would have done it because I just didn't have all the knowledge. Of course my, my experience, Sons are healthy and  all of that. But going into surrogacy, you know, we tested, had to test our embryos and we had six left at that point. And this whole time I'm just thinking like, Oh my gosh, we have all these embryos.

 And it dwindled down pretty quickly. I mean,  with the flash freezing, it made me think of this because we had to,  Thaw our embryos to be biopsied and they told us there's like a less than 1 percent chance that you'll lose one in the thaw, but it can definitely happen. So out of the six, we did lose one in the thaw.

So we were down to the five embryos. And when the results came back out of those five, like two were abnormal. One was  labeled mosaic, which. So my understanding is kind of like they don't have enough information based on the cells that were biopsied and then two were normal and I was like, Oh my gosh, because our agency required to normal genetically tested embryos in order to move forward with the journey.

And I was like, Oh, no problem. We have like six in the freezer. No big deal. And science proved otherwise. I was like, had no idea all the things that were tested and what they could determine. So it's wild how quickly that can. That can change. But is that standard?  Amongst agencies or is that agency specific needing to normal embryos to move forward?

So I think what it is, is like there's an education level with with surrogates these days. And so, unfortunately, the, the side, the other side of it is, is that most times when there's a failed transfer, it's a embryo reason. However, as surrogates, we kind of get a scarlet letter. Where if we've had three failed transfers with a family, even if the embryos, maybe they weren't PG tested or maybe they were low, you know, low quality or whatever it was because that's not our medical information.

Right. We just go to the next agency or we go to a clinic and we say, Hey, we'd love to be a surrogate, but we've had three failed transfers. They're just looking at the fails. And so we get the scarlet letter of like, we can't work with you. 

I never thought about it like that. Yeah. 

You know, now I'm noticing surrogates say, Hey, what are your embryos tested? Are they graded? So while we don't, we don't require, there's certain circumstances where we don't require the PG testing, we do highly recommend it. Just because of those items. Also with.  You know, depending on parents and surrogates wishes for,  what they're comfortable with when it comes to, unfortunately, like termination or if there was a malady or something with the PG tested, the circuits feel more comfortable allowing parents to have more of that right to make that decision because they feel like it's a lesser chance if someone didn't have, you know, tested embryos, they may have a stricter criteria for what they're comfortable with  because there's a higher chance of them having to go through that.

But in five years And we've had hundreds of babies. We help about 100 families a year. We have never had any type of reduction in termination or proportion with PG test embryos in 6 years. So that technology really helps us, you know, to be able to keep successful pregnancies and healthy pregnancies for everyone.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I, I really never thought about it from that point of view of like, you know, like you said, like from a surrogate's point, like having like a scarlet letter and really has nothing to do with her ability to carry a pregnancy. You know, just the embryo. So that's really interesting.

I wasn't thinking about it like that. I think the other thing too is like, For my understanding, you know,  if say you only had one embryo too, it's like if it didn't take or doesn't work out, even if it is a normal tested embryo,  then you're back to square one with like getting matched with somebody else or waiting if you want it, waiting for the couple to go get more embryos. You know, it's just such a process. And like you said, it's so intricate in matching someone. So it would just push everything back. I feel like. 

And I, I'm one of those people that I, I matched my second family with someone who only had one embryo, But given that I was familiar with their clinic, I mean, obviously it's hard when you work at an agency because you see all the parents and you're like, I wish I had 20 uteruses.

Yeah,  

I wish I could help them all. And I remember this parent coming through and they had one embryo. And you know, I remember it being like kind of later in life. So the embryo, the egg, you know, egg donor was a little older. And I'm looking at everything. I'm like, it's gonna be a hard matchup.

I'll just do it. Right? Like, This is fine. I'll just get, you know, and so I remember that risk of like carrying one embryo. My, my first family, our last transfer, we tried to, to transfer a mosaic. I was comfortable with that because studies have shown that even with the mosaic, it will self correct. If it can make it past the first trimester.

 Let's just give them a shot. Like there are women out there that are like, I don't care if my heart says that this is a family I'm helping. You could have poor quality embryos. I have a friend who did like five transfers because they were untested three day embryo. She finally got pregnant with their baby, but there are women out there that are like, that's fine.

You know, like let's do this. But again, it's the consent, right? Like, so if we just make sure everyone has educated consent and I tell parents, don't feel bad if you only have one embryo, you know, like we'll find you the right surrogate. We'll find someone who's okay, you know, getting that shot. Yeah. It is expensive to even get to a transfer and then have one.

Yeah. You know, and so. Right. 

Try to be very honest and transparent with parents, like, even if it's not successful, you still risk the chance of spending 50, 000  to even get through a transfer or two, because every transfer costs money with medications. 

Right.  

Really hard. 

That's a really good point.

Yeah. I mean, there's so many factors to that go into it.  I think that's why I would go back personally and tell my younger self to genetically test my embryos just for my own mental health and heartache, because I'm just, I'm amazed that, I mean, out of the bunch of embryos that we had, you know, my sons were chosen, but, There could have been two, three instances where they transferred,  an embryo that just wasn't going to be viable for pregnancy. And that would just be more loss, more money invested, and just so many things, so. 

And that emotional side, you know, for you as a parent, you know, and as a surrogate, there's an awkward moment of like, we mourn for your children when we have a failed transfer or we have a miscarriage. But sometimes we don't know how to like, connect with you on that.

Like, we don't want you to feel guilty.  And I know that as a parent, I see them, they're like, we want to, we want to mourn, but we don't want her to feel guilty. Like it's just,  everyone is trying to have this baby for you. And it's like this, like, how do we handle this? How do we handle the loss?

Am I, as a surrogate, am I allowed to mourn for someone else's child, you know, like it really is. And I think, you know, it's definitely the talking, the communicating. I try to tell surrogates like you never know what the parents have been through in the beginning So they may not be your social media ig jumping up and down Gender reveals because maybe they've never got past the second trimester Yeah, they're just trying to get through the first like they just want to see like, okay, we need we need a heartbeat Okay, we got a heartbeat.

Let's get through the first trimester to see if we're gonna stick and and so a lot of times we're educating surrogates too on the aspect of like You have to remember, there could have been a lot of loss, a lot of trauma, a lot of heartache, and mom and dad want to celebrate their two scored, you know?

And so, it's, it is this, it's really empathy, I think. It's like putting yourselves into each other's shoes and wanting to have, everyone has the same goal,  they bring different baggage into it, you know? 

Yeah, that's, that's true. And I feel like too, as just from a view of an intended parent going through a surrogacy journey the first time, you yourself don't really even know sometimes how you're going to feel.

I, cause I remember, you know, we were having our first conversations of like, just kind of getting an idea of like our, our, whatever our first interview was of how we felt about certain things. And I just remember feeling like, I, I don't know, I think I'll feel this way, but like when we're in it, I don't know, 

like I thought I would feel like it would be hard to see her pregnant because it's not me. But that hasn't actually been the case. I feel completely opposite. I feel so like blessed and overjoyed and like a relief because this has been the least stressful, like emotionally easy Experience compared to what I've been through that it's just and I that caught me by surprise and I think even people around me  like they weren't didn't want to ask about certain things.

And I'm like, No, look, this is her bump picture. Like, it's amazing. Like, there's our baby, all these things. So yeah, keeping the communication open and being honest, but also knowing that a lot of times it's uncharted territory for both sides, you know, 

Oh yeah, and every surrogacy is different for an experienced surrogate too. We're dealing with different pregnancies and different families and so, yeah, just like we're not, we're definitely not the know all, like end all, be all, like, oh, I've got this. Like every surrogate, you know, like it's, it is, it's, you never know. And that's what, you know, I try to explain the first family.

We're, we're connected. The  children know me as auntie, they know my husband, they know my, they chose to call our kids, big brother, big sisters, because they think it's amazing to have these like giant Polynesian children who live in the U S as their siblings, like their little Pokemon trading cards, like look at our siblings, you know but the second family that wasn't them and they were going through their own journey and.

You know, and a lot of times in different cultures, it's not okay to have a surrogate and it's very taboo and so they were going through their own thing and I understand that. So like I definitely don't have hard feelings. We got kind of rough at the end, but looking back, like they're just parents and they were full of fear and it's 2020 July when planes are getting canceled and I'm having their only real, their only baby.

You know, like I remember when we got to the trans, like the transfer and then a couple weeks later. I sent them,  the heartbeat and they said that was the first time they'd ever heard a heartbeat of their child. They'd never made it to the heartbeat, you know, so like, yeah, that's fearful.

There's a lot of fear in that it, so it is I would never do an independent journey. I think there's people that can, but I need that extra support and you never know, like even with my family, I've done three with, we never know what could happen in the next journey. And I, yeah, I want people to know. I want an agency who's going to handle all the problems. You're going to let me and the mom concentrate on this pregnancy and do everything else. Like you figure all that stuff out for me because I'm here to just  Have a baby for my friend. 

Yeah, I only have the experience I have, but I don't think I could go through this without our agency for sure. There's just so many different levels of support that are, it's just so helpful.

And well, the biggest thing is things that I wasn't expecting, you know, just answering certain questions and navigating yeah, someone else's feelings when they arise. So I think there's, there's so helpful to have people in your corner. 

Yeah. Even the success rate, like So, you know, we were talking about the success, the agency kind of, they helped to improve that and ethical agency helps. Like we did a survey of, I want to say like 150 to 200 surrogates and they weren't just with our agency. They were all over, you know, the country and different agencies. And they had an 88 percent success rate, which is considerably higher than 45. 5 for women under 35. Like there's something with these requirements, but obviously.

You know, as a mom going through IVF, you're not like, Oh, I don't meet these requirements. I'm not going to do IVF. So I think it comes in as there's just a higher. Standard. And I remember thinking like, I have never been athletic. I have never, you know, done anything, but I felt like, man, I got this little notch of my belt. Like I was qualified as a surrogate, you know,  top of my class.  

I mean like, yeah. And this, this. Scenario. Yes, like those. I remember looking at the criteria, too. I'm like, wow, like there's there's a reason I need the help of a surrogate. I'm not reading this and like, thank goodness, because these requirements and it's so like you said, there's a lot of emotion and experience that.

Comes behind someone usually doing a surrogacy journey. And so the high success rates is that much more encouraging and like protective of your heart, because, you know, this is, I know for us too, this was like the end of our own personal journey, you know, mentally, physically, financially, this was like, all right, this is our last, we're going to see how this goes to complete our family and If not, then that's the end of the road for us.

And so knowing that all of these things are in place and there's people and agencies out there to help you it's just was comforting. I mean, I don't think I could have gone through with this, not knowing that the success rate was actually so high and in our favor. It's scary.

It is. I mean, and again, no one, I, you know, as a mom, cause I dealt with the secondary infertility, never did I think like, as I was being raised, like, I can't wait to get married and then have secondary infertility and then potentially need IBS.

Like it wasn't, that's not what people like. No, in the media, you think like, Oh, it's the, you know, so and so's and they have like  health issues and they're just going to have surrogates or they don't want to get fat or you know what? Right. But there's so many more.  There's heterosexual couples or same sex couples and you know that that can't have their own children, you know, be in natural ways.

And so there's so many different families, there's so many different ways that happens. And maybe that's where some of that high success rate comes into because There are a lot of same sex couples that are going through IVF, and they're using an egg donor, and when you're using a 20 year old or a 22 year old, the egg quality is a little bit more jumpy and happy, you know, like, For sure, yeah.

And a lot of times when we get, there's a society of, like, women where we're here to build our careers, and then we get married, and then we get to a point where, like, oh, we should probably like do something about this fertility thing and we're 35 and you're hitting 40 and like, you know, and that's where I tell all of my friends when they're in their twenties, like just freeze your eggs. 

Yes. I preach that too now. Yeah.  

No one thinks about that. We're starting families later. And so there's a higher chance. And so I think egg  quality and donor eggs also raises that 88 percent cause we have to put that in. It makes sense. We can't be so hard on like  Yeah. You know, families like, Oh, well, why don't I have that success rate?

Well, yeah. I mean, that makes sense. And there's, like you said, there's so many different scenarios when, when it comes to, utilizing a surrogate's help, it's, you know, you could have an egg donor, sperm donor, all the different things. But I, I too preach the egg freezing. I, I didn't egg freezing.

We did IVF when I was 29 and obviously our embryos were frozen then. That's right. And that was after like, you know, we started trying when I was 26. And so I didn't know it would take that long, but same thing with my friends, you know, I think I have more friends doing IVF right now than not to have children and they're in their thirties and it's hard. So yeah, I think that's a whole nother topic, but I agree with the HICC freezing. So it's like, 

yeah, one in six, one in six in the world deal with infertility and fertility issues. One in eight in the U S like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that it's, I mean, I'm so thankful for podcasts like yours that are bringing this because.

You know, as a woman, when I was dealing with that, like it hurt. I didn't understand it. I was bitter. I was watching all my cousins have these babies. I'm like, I'm finally financially stable. I'm in a good part of my marriage. Like, why would you give me kids? I mean, I had my children by the age of 21. I was 16.

And then I had the last one at like 20.  You gave me these kids when like, we're surprised they're alive. And now that I'm stable and I've got money. 

You're like, no, no, I got this now. Come on. 

You just threw them to chance when I was a teenager, but now you won't give me like when I'm functioning, you know?

And that's like the, the landscape now in a nutshell, because everyone is not even attempting it until they're like all their ducks in are, are in a row and everything. And, and then, you know, it's just a lack of education too. I mean, I didn't even realize the decline in egg quality and all of that until I was in my thirties.

So yeah, it's,  It's crazy. But so for somebody listening, because this has been really, really interesting. I know for me, just hearing from a surrogate and your point of view on things, because while I know there's crossover, it's been very eye opening to get your take on it from your perspective. For anyone listening, Who might be hearing this conversation or maybe it was already on their mind and their heart are ready to look into becoming a surrogate. 

What is your, and you've already, you know, dropped so much great advice, but what would be one thing you would tell to someone who is like newly looking into becoming a surrogate? Like, what's a piece of advice you would give? 

Yeah. Gosh. Okay. Let me think. Because 

take your time. I like just put you on the spot.

No. Yeah. No. I'm like, I came from a culture of like talking stories. So like to give like a precise thing.     Research. Like it is so important to, to research and know what you're wanting out of it. I just feel like there are a lot of. bells and whistles and loud things and giant numbers being thrown at surrogate. But really understanding are you needing the support in the relationship of an agency? Are you looking for someone who's going to have your best interest at hand?

That's going to protect you. May even say no because it's not safe for you to be pregnant. To have that support system. I know even as an independent woman,  I rely so much during my journeys on my sisters and my agency and my coordinators. And so, That's that's something that is like I would say number one It's just research the agencies look for the agency that's going to support you the way that  You are needing if you're looking for the health and wellness programs or the mental health support or the education, you know definitely just doing that and even with parents and I would make sure their seeds members seeds ethics is an awesome organization And a lot of the parents and the surrogates that come to me and my coaching position outside of my agency they're always complaining about different agencies and I've never found them on the SEEDS members.

Okay, that's helpful 

Yeah, and so I think always check that, you know, check those other items, reach out to me. I mean, I know I'm a surrogate first, but if we don't protect this community, we risk losing it for the whole country. And so I'm definitely not a gatekeeper. So you can reach out to me on email or phone or whatever it is, my TikTok, if you want to see my amazing dance moves, not really.

Whatever you need, just ask questions. I talk to a lot of surrogates from different agencies and support them. We're opening up, which is amazing. It's actually launching this week, a open to the public fourth trimester support group.  Any surrogate, whether you're independent with an agency it's, you know, obviously I'm getting, you know, I'm sponsored by my agency, but they have no ties into it.

They don't get the information about the surrogates and we will have a mental health professional on a monthly, even a bi weekly zoom call for surrogates to connect mind, body, and soul. Like, So if you're out there, you know, there are community things that are coming out. There are surrogates who have been around, you know, us, us older ladies who are like hanging up the, you know, the surrogacy check that are wanting to help the community, but reach out, I'll give you the, the services, the providers, anything you're needing, like attorneys, mental health professionals, whatever it is, that information is free. Just, Maybe find a big sister who's been a surrogate. That'll help you. 

Yeah. Yeah, that is great advice. And I will definitely you know, including the show notes away for people to connect with you if they have questions or are interested in, this webinar. That's I'm really glad you mentioned that too, because I'd never thought about that until our agency explained that the support our surrogates get in the fourth trimester, which.

As moms, you know, as I didn't know this the first time I was pregnant until I was in it, but the fourth trimester is a very real thing. And so that support is, is important. But that was, that's great advice. Research, research, research. 

Yeah. And no, are you sad? Your baby went home and I'm like, I didn't know. That's not my baby. 

Right, right. 

I'm full of hormones and yeah,  just finished a job. Like 

I just did a very big thing. 

Yeah. Like that. I loved now who am I going to figure out my titles? 

I love that. Yes. And I think understanding your why too, because it's as we've you shared in this episode, there's a lot that goes into it.

And even if you feel it in your heart, you know, maybe just Like you said, get, see if you meet the requirements first and reach out to someone and get information because there's probably, you know, don't get heartbroken over really wanting to do something just to find out that, you know, there might be a requirement that doesn't work for you.

So, yeah, that is so helpful. And I just really appreciate you being on the show today. I loved picking your brain and learning more and I hope listeners just got more educated on surrogacy based on an intended parent's point of view and a surrogate's point of view. I think that's so important. So thank you for being on and sharing. 

Oh, no. And thank you for having, you know, having this podcast that's available for people. I think it's so valuable and, and I've got to, you know, listen to your other episodes and I I just think this is really special and it makes people not feel so alone, but you're very fair on sharing this information. And so I want to thank you for even having me on your show. 

Yeah, of course. Thanks for saying that. That's, that's always the goal is just to educate and support others so that they don't feel alone. It's something I wish I had more of back in like 2015 when I started my journey, but it was actually another podcast.

It was a podcast. The very first podcast I ever listened to. It was a fertility podcast and it was because  people weren't talking about it and I was looking for answers. So never thought, you know, that a decade later I'd be here. Trying to do the same thing for others, but thank you for saying that because that is the whole point of the show.

Well, thank you so much. 

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