FLRRiSH: Cultivating Strength and Support for NICU Families

After an unexpected hiatus, Jacqueline is back with a new episode as she joyfully shares her family's recent expansion to five as they welcomed a perfect little girl into the world! She was born happy and healthy on April 17th via their gracious surrogate. Everyone is doing well! More on her birth story to come...

In this episode, Jacqueline chats with Jodi, a fellow preemie mom, on how to manage when birth stories deviate from expectations. Jodi's journey with her daughter's premature birth at 28 weeks, the subsequent NICU stay, and the emotional aftermath is intimately detailed. Through both of their stories, this episode delves into the struggles and triumphs of navigating premature parenthood, advocating for one's children, and the importance of finding and offering support to others in similar situations.

The discussion also touches on broader themes of motherhood, infertility, surrogacy, and reframing mindsets to cope with unexpected life events. The conversation is not only a source of comfort and camaraderie for those with shared experiences, but also offers practical advice and highlights the critical need for extending and seeking support through networks like Jodi's initiative, FLRRiSH. Jacqueline encourages listeners to engage in self-reflection, reach out for support, and contribute to the podcast community.

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• Learn more about FLRRiSH
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00:00 Welcome Back & Personal Updates

00:27 The Magical Journey of Surrogacy

01:48 Podcast Season Updates & Listener Support

03:12 Navigating the NICU Journey: A Conversation with Jodi

06:42 Empowerment Through Advocacy: Flrrish's Mission

11:11 The Transition Home from NICU: Challenges and Support

17:17 Reframing Parenthood After Premature Birth

19:38 Advocating for Your Child's Needs Beyond the NICU

25:11 The Power of Resilience in Premature Births

26:23 Celebrating Preemie Strength as a Superpower

28:2

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• 10:33 (Cont.) FLRRiSH: Cultivating Strength and Support for NICU Families

Transcript

Hi friend. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode. I definitely did not mean to leave you hanging these last few weeks. It was, um, unintentional to take a little bit of a hiatus from the podcast.  But I severely underestimated not only my to do list, but the emotions that were creeping up and the anxiety that creeped up prior to my daughter's birth. And then of course, the time spent after her birth. 

So. Spoiler alert, our daughter is here. She was born on April 17th. Happy, healthy. We are thriving as a new family of five. Our surrogate is doing well, and it was such a magical experience. I'm not going to get into it today because in a couple of weeks, I'm going to do a full episode to end this season of the podcast, and it will be all about our daughter's birth story and the experience we had in Texas witnessing the birth of our daughter via surrogate, and I just can't wait to share it all with you.

So again, sorry for the, the three week hiatus of no new episodes. That was not my intention.  I thought for sure that I would have this whole season just ready to go for you before the birth of our daughter.  But in true form,  I say this all the time, things don't always go as planned. Um, especially in motherhood.

You know, I had to Really managed my time and I was trying to make sure that I spend one on one time with our boys before her arrival Making sure we're packed have everything we need childcare set up for our boys because we ended up being down in Texas for a week  And it was a lot and you know, my work fell to the wayside But you guys have been on my mind this whole time whole time because this community and this podcast means so much to me.

So I'm happy to be back on the mic this week. After today's episode, we have two episodes left, and then that will conclude season three of the podcast. And then once school starts back up again, Season 4 will premiere on September 5th. But don't worry, I will be dropping bonus episodes throughout the summer. But regularly scheduled weekly programming will start again with Season 4 on September 5th.

I have an awesome conversation in store for you today. But before I get to that, I did want to ask for a favor. So many of you have been listening to this podcast since it aired over a year ago, and I have appreciated your support in my own fertility journey since then.

And it just means so much to me to have you here listening each week. If you're enjoying the show, the best thing you can do is to write a review, hit the fifth star, leave me some feedback. This will help other women find the podcast, and hopefully then they won't feel so alone as they navigate their own infertility journey and all the seasons of motherhood.

There's also a link in the show notes where you can help support the show. As I continue to build out partnerships for recordings and creating resources for you all and taking this thing to the next level, your support is always appreciated. So if you think you can skip your coffee run today and put that towards the mother and intended podcast instead, I greatly appreciate it, just click the link in the show notes.

So today's episode is going to hit home for you if you have experienced a baby in the NICU. Today I'm talking with Jodi, who is a fellow preemie mom who understands what it means to be a NICU parent. I was connected with her last year through a mutual contact. Shout out to Bryant, co founder of the Fertility Resort, who connected us.

But Jodi and I are going to be discussing how to reframe your mindset when your birth story doesn't go as planned and how to persevere and be positive. So if you haven't heard my story yet, go all the way back to episodes one and two of season one, or get the shortened version of the first episode in season three. And you will see what I mean by. Having a birth story that doesn't go as planned, but Jodi is a preemie parent. Just like me, her daughter was born at 28 weeks when her seemingly perfect pregnancy took a turn for the worst. Luckily, her daughter is now five years old, but the next thing she knew when her daughter was born was that three days later, she had no idea what had just transpired.

 It was as if her husband and her got their medical degrees without ever applying to school  becoming members of this like preemie parent club, which she doesn't ever remembered thinking about joining. She was physically, emotionally, and mentally unprepared. And boy, can I relate to that experience?

What followed for Jody was a journey of self discovery and renewed it. Purpose through her own personal journey and years of experience in the fields of coaching, mental health and wellbeing, education, empowerment, and advocacy. 

She helps other people make and sustain choices that align with their family's needs during the most pivotal time in your lives, which is possible, but not easy. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees, especially when you don't have the right support or a guide holding your hand the whole way.

And you probably have tried many things to change the way you feel, whether it's reading articles, scrolling the internet, or asking your friends, but yet you still find the circumstances in your life upsetting and alone.

Just as your baby is cared for by doctors, you can feel cared for by Jodi, a preemie parent who knows exactly what you're going through. I say this all the time, friends, but you are not alone.

I love chatting with Jodi and hearing her story and seeing how she has evolved from an experience that she had and was not anticipating. And I hope you too find value in this episode. Take a listen. 

Hi, Jodi. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today. 

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. 

We met a while back, but, and while our stories are different, but we do have a lot in common. we were just chatting before we hit record, like, there's so much we can, relate to with each other's stories.

And, today I would love for you to share your experience,  just, you know, Going into motherhood. I know you had a preemie daughter. And then just where you're at today. And then we'll talk about how we can reframe our mindsets when our plans don't go as planned. You know, I know listeners can relate in all sorts of ways.

I know myself. My plans, everything from not being able to get pregnant to how I got pregnant to the way I had all my children and now surrogacy, it's nothing went to plan. And, I would love to get your take on how to like persevere after that and stay positive. But let's start with, learning a little bit more about you. 

I just want to first say one thing, even though it doesn't go according to plan, that doesn't mean it's not beautiful. And it doesn't mean that it's not wonderful. 

Or that it's the plan that was intended, because I feel that too. I mean, I wouldn't rewrite my story now.  I've learned a lot and,  each of my children made their way into this world  the way they were supposed to, so.

I, I, I think the same. And that's really my why for starting flourish. Um, I'm a mom to a former, I guess, 28 weeker. My two pound peanut is now just turned five. And it's, it's really miraculous how we went from there to where we are now. I even sometimes look at pictures and I think to myself, there's no way you were that small, but I know she was small.

Um, But, you know, in getting back to your question,  yeah, in our NICU journey, we just felt really alone and unsupported. And by alone, it doesn't matter if you have the most caring relationship with your family, spouse, a million friends. What I mean by alone is, is that Alone in yourself and your feelings and no one else to share them with who can truly empathize and validate what you're going through. 

And while we were in the NICU and even just home, I said to my husband, we can't be the only people who feel this way. There are so many babies born early every year. That's a lot of people who are feeling alone and overwhelmed, but yet there's nothing for us.  We get lumped together with regular full term parents and our growth trajectories for our kids, not to mention our own personal parenthood trajectories, are just so different, especially for the first couple of years.

And for me, I feel that my daughter was born this way so that I could take what I learned to help other people. And I call it flourish because when Jenna was first starting out and growing, I'd always say, she's flourishing, she's growing, she's flourishing. And I always loved that. Adjective because it's all about life.

And at the end of the day, we're all always learning, flourishing and growing every single day. Now we might not be growing in height, but metaphorically speaking, yes, because we're always learning. And so I think really it could apply to so many things in life, the word flourish. And. I just really want to empower parents to advocate for their children and advocate for themselves, whether that means going to get help with, um, a coach or a therapist, or even talking to a friend.

I implore people to do that because it is so important to get your feelings out of your system so that then you can work through, process them, and then be a better parent partner, even better to yourself in walking forward through the rest of your life.

 Absolutely. And I think,  a lot of times too, whether  your baby is in the, in the nick, you were born premature, you know, I, for you and for me, I think it was our, you know, it's our first baby and first time bringing a baby home and you're already overwhelmed as parents.

 I remember thinking back to our journey and. I absolutely felt very isolated and alone, and I learned quickly too that in the NICU, you know, you think these are  parents that you can connect to, and while you can on many levels, every baby in the NICU has a different story. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were born premature, and I learned  That there was just so many different reasons.

I thought we were all  like in this group together. And I was like, Oh, wow.  I have a 24 weeker that's like fighting for his life. And that is not the same story as the baby next door. So it can, it can feel really isolating.  And I just remember feeling  as a, you know, a first time parent, I was like, I got this.

This is my job. Like I am a mom and I I'm just, I'll figure it out. But.  You have to reach out and you have to find those people and advocate for yourself and your baby. And there's no shame in connecting with people and asking for help,  I mean, they always say, right, it takes a village. And I think regardless of your situation, whether it's trying to get pregnant, being surprised by a premature delivery or whatever to follow,  it takes help and people and, and knowledge. 

And there's nothing wrong with getting that help. So I think in society,  somehow been told that getting help is something to be stigmatized or ashamed.

Yeah. Like it's a sign of weakness and it's absolutely not. 

It's completely the opposite. I always say it's a sign of strength because that means, you know, you can't do it all. You know, you need something or someone to help you with a challenge that you're facing. 

Yeah. So your daughter was born at 28 weeks, how long was she in the NICU?

She was in the NICU 77 days, and she came home three days before her due date. So that was, and when they told me, Oh, she'll be here until around her due date. I'm like, but that's forever. 

Yeah. 

I mean, 

right. And, and to your point about before, when you said there are babies fighting for their lives and you're fighting for your child's life. And then when you come home, you're fighting to keep them alive. Like it was a totally different mentality than I thought that I would have as a  

Yeah. 

I didn't think I'd be so scared. I mean, yes, bringing a life into the world is a scary thing, but to the extent when you have a baby that's in the NICU, it's like scared times 10. And I always couch it as when she came home, I just wanted to keep her alive. Right. Because then there wasn't 24, seven doctors and nurses. And again, it's People think once your child is home, everything's great. No worries. No problems. And I would argue it gets that much harder because reality sets in.

Yeah. I did not feel prepared for how I was going to feel or what that looked like coming home at all. It felt very like, Oh, we got home. Like we did it. Like we did it. And now we can move on. Like as if it never happened and he's just full term now. But that's that wasn't the case at all.

I was completely blindsided by all the emotions and feelings I had. And, you know, you don't realize it when you're in the moment, you know, 77 days, you're in the NICU. My son was in there 120  days ended up coming home. Two weeks after his,  due date, which it was a whole nother feeling. 'cause I was told the same, you know,  aim for his due date and that's how long he's gonna be here.

Which again, you hear that and you're like, no, but like that, that's months. Like, that's a long time and,  bringing him home, I, I didn't realize, I guess over that whole time, you know, how. Supported you are and you get really conditioned to bells and whistles and, knowing that everything is monitored outside of you.

Like, it's like a backup, like you're on high alert trying to advocate for your child and take care of your baby. But you have a whole team to support you and all the, the medical devices by you. And then I will never forget the first night we came home. I did not sleep a week. I mean, you, I just like stared at him because I was like, is this allowed? Like, is he okay? Like you said, no one prepares you for. 

It's terrifying. 

Switch. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

And I think therein lies also too, like my reason for flourish, right. It's bridging that gap. 

Yeah. 

And it's not necessarily. That people, and I do talk to moms that are in the NICU, but I think once you get home and you realize that that support is not there and realizing, oh my God, what do I do? I have 20 appointments to follow up with. Plus I need to start therapies plus, Oh, I'm still healing from my own journey. 

Right. 

Where's my. space for myself and my spouse, partner, husband, right? So you're trying to juggle all those things and no one tells you anything because when they're in the hospital, rightfully so the goal is to get them home.

Right. 

And, and once they're home, you're kind of like, Well, where's my manual now? Where's my, where's my instruction book is what I'm supposed to do. And I think for parents like us, like, that's why I said I was terrified because similarly, it slept in her room, every gurgle, every noise, every, then I was like making sure her stomach or diaphragm was going up and down, you again, because we didn't have like the typical.

You know, start and yes, it's true, you know, with time and everything, things end up working out, maybe the kids need extra support and love in so many other ways, but in those initial, especially initial, I'd say year, two years, the trajectory is just. Mind boggling. And I think it's still amazing to me that with the amount of premature births in this country, that there's nothing  for parents. 

It is such a need to bridge that gap. It's so exciting all the things you're doing with Flourish. I mean, it's amazing. it is so necessary because you can't like you mentioned earlier You can't treat, a premature birth or a traumatic birth experience like any other Experience it's in its own category. So sending a parent home And just expecting them to be like, all right, we did it like there's there needs to be more support there And it's not by any fault of the doctors. That's not their job. They're not our  They're not our, appointment coordinator, which would honestly be really helpful. I was so overwhelmed with that.

Like you mentioned, it's like you get sent home, but you're actually so much busier and you're running all around with all the different therapies and follow ups on top of all of a sudden, yeah, just learning to be a mom and God forbid recovering yourself.  I don't know about you, but for me, I mean, I felt like when I came home, even though I was.

Four months postpartum, I was like, I feel like postpartum kicked in then I was just a robot, you know, while he was in the NICU and then I came home and I was like, Oh my gosh, like I brought a baby into this world. Like this is wild. And, never really dealt with my own feelings mentally or physically. And that's, you know, on top of everything we're dealing with. So the support is such a need in that time. 

Well, completely right. You don't have a choice. When, you know, your child is fighting for their life inherently as a parent, you want to do the fight for them, right? So you're putting one foot in front of the other so that you could fight for them every single day. So that makes sense, almost robotic like right that you're just going to the NICU and doing what you have to do to survive. 

Yeah. 

And then when you come home, it's true. That's when you, when reality kicks in and you start to maybe somewhat process what happened. But even still,  you know, I say months out from there is when I first started to process what happened. I want to say my daughter had to be a good like nine months old. So  we were home like a good six months before I finally started to not feel so fragile, myself, and started to reshape how I viewed myself as a mother. And I think it's really hard when you're in the thick of it. to do that. But I also think that you and I are very self aware people. You have to be someone who is strong and self aware to want to reframe what your parenthood journey is. And I come into contact with this all the time and, you know, people saying, Oh, I want help. I need help, but maybe later.  And I'm not going to push someone to, that's not what I'm, I'm about.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day, you have to want it for yourself enough to do something about it. And that goes for anything in life, right? 

Yeah. 

Just say, You're an alcoholic, right? You have to want to stop and then do something about it. So it's, it's very similar in that respect. You have to be very self aware and, and be like, okay, I'm going to make a difference in the way my life is now, or I'm I'm going to stop, you know, whatever happened in my own childhood.

I'm going to be different right then how my parents raised me. And for some reason, you know, there was something that happened, but you have to make a conscious effort to do it. No, one's going to go. One's going to do it for you. You have to make that decision. Someone can help you uncovering and reframing, but you ultimately have to make the decision. That you want to do that reframe. 

Yeah. And of course no one's like saying that it's, it's easy. It's easy to change. It's easy to, find the help that you need. But again, if you want it bad enough and you want to reframe your situation and reframe your mind, like. You have to put in the work and I think that brings me back to just when you talked about, you know, the name flourish.

It's that's what it is. We're always evolving and always growing and changing and pivoting. And,  that's like parenthood in a nutshell, right? We're always just trying to do our best and pivot when things surprise us and,  we can't control who our kids are. We can just take the knowledge that we have and help them the best that we can. So, it's important. It's not easy, but it's important to advocate for yourself and to get the help that you want. 

Yes. Because, you know, in what you just said, setting your child up right for success, whatever that may be, you know, you and I were talking before about school, you know, and success means. different things to different people. Where my daughter is in her life right now, I want her to love going to school, love learning, and I think she is doing that because she's in the right place to help her and support her. And as her mom, I fought for that for her, but you know, you have to get to that.

It's not going to fall into your lap.  have to do that for your child. I mean, any person when they're born, right. I believe it could be the president of the United States if they really want to right. There's so much hope. There's so much promise. Their lives are ahead of them,  but I feel, especially, you know, when your child needs a little extra love and support,  it's our job as parents to put them in the situation as best as we can so that they can do that.

 I absolutely agree. 

And that also comes from  accepting and processing what your parenthood journey is versus what you thought it was going to be. 

Which is such an important point because as you were talking earlier, you know,  coming home for the NICU, I said, it took like six months to really, you know, process and be like calmer, I guess, in the journey and the experience of bringing home a newborn. And I remember so vividly, you know, my son's first birthday, I think is when I really. Even understood the magnitude of his last year because, you know, you're always pushing forward, especially when you have a preemie, you're like, okay, they need to grow. They need to hit these milestones. And every parent goes through that, with their children, especially in that first year with milestones and everything, but even more so as a preemie parent, because you don't want them to be behind, you're always trying to get them to catch up.

And I remember on his first birthday, you know, he had, I think I don't know if it's a banner or what, but like, you know, a photo of every month of his first year of life. And when I looked back to the picture of my son,  when he was born or in those first six months, even I was like, Oh my gosh, I don't even know. 

I, I didn't remember it that way. Like I was like, he was so tiny and fragile and it's because I just kept going. I never really like turned around and was like,  he went through a lot. We went through a lot. Like that was a lot. And I think even as You know, like you were saying with school and making sure we give our kids what they need.

 This sticks out in my brain because I think it, this was probably a few years ago, but a pediatrician had made a comment to me and was like, he's fine, he can't be  Going to prom and you're going to be like, all right, my preemies go into prom or whatever.

Basically made the point that like, it's not like he's a preemie forever. And I kind of was like, that always stuck with me. Cause I'm like, no, I hear you  physically he's caught up, like he's, you know, his size and everything, but it has shaped who he is. And it's always going to be a part of them that he was born at 24 weeks.

And I think as our kids get older, you know, we were talking about school before we were recording. And as he's. Now in elementary school, you know, even more, I have to advocate for what he needs because on the outside, everyone's like, oh, he's another kindergartner or even worse, you know, because he's a boy.

They're like, oh, he's, he's just hyper. He'll get, he's delayed a little bit because he's a boy, you know, he can't sit still in school cause a boy. And I'm like,  Well, no, like I, I, this is very much on my radar and I'm not going to wait around to see if it changes. I'm going to make sure he has the resources that he needs.

And so I think like you said, as preemie parents, you know, everything's under a microscope for us. We're, we're very aware of what our kids need, what we need, but I think it applies to anybody. And you have to  not be afraid to, you know, get what your children need and be aware of that and not be afraid to speak up.

Yeah. I mean, I. I would take issue with what your pediatrician said too. I think it's such a huge part of his story, your family's story. And not something to be for, well, I don't think you could ever forget it, but not something to be even brushed under the rug. Like I, 

yeah.

 My daughter actually recently started to ask me questions. It was interesting. 

Yeah. 

It's similar to you. So we have like, you know, the picture frames and it's each month in her,  bedroom now they've been there, you know, for a long time. And she finally asked me like when it said newborn, literally it was the picture of her, she was on the ventilator and she's like, why can't you see my face?

Why do I look like I'm crying? What's going on? And, and, you know, In a five year old world, how I answered it was, you know, honey, sometimes when people are born, they just need a little extra help breathing. I said, or a little extra time growing. I'm like, yeah, you were one of those people. I said, but look at you now.

I go, do you seem like you're crying and angry and all that, you know, and yeah, it's like, no. And, you know, and then I showed her with each progression of the picture, how she changed, like went from everything to then just the one tube then to nothing.  And I think that fight in our kids is going to be with them and serve them well  in their lifetime, because they've already had to for so long.

And So, you know, at such a young age that their muscles or their body or their brain will have this memory that they can call upon it when stressful times do come in their life later up. 

Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. I mean, that comment that he made always comes up in my mind because I could not disagree more. And everything you just said is how I feel. And recently at the beginning, I think we were talking earlier, you know, my son had a rough transition from preschool to kindergarten given, you know, the length of the day and the structure of how school changes so much. And you know, three months into school, he received an award at like, it was an assembly for the whole school and they picked two kindergarteners for this award and he received a resilience award.

And I was like, he brought that home and I was like in tears because they don't know. I mean, I don't broadcast to the school that like, this is my 25. I'm like, you have no idea how resilient he is. Like he was born at two pounds. You know, it's just, but that's who he is, you know? And I think it, they, they fought to be here from the beginning.

And. That will serve them well going through life. So it is, it's a part of who they are, it's a part of who we've become as parents, and it is not to be forgotten. I mean, it doesn't define them, in the fact that like, oh, you're, you're always going to be, quote unquote, delayed or catching up. That's not That's not true, but you know, who they are to their core, I think has a lot to do with how they came into this world and, and what they did to get here.

And I, I view it to your point about resiliency. I say this to Jenna every night, how strong determined and like resilient she, she really is. I feel like all preemie babies are, but, and again, that's something to be celebrated and it's a power. Like to me, it's not like. The preemie hood defined you. It's more like you've been given preemie power and as a superpower, right?

Reframe that again, it goes to that whole reframe. It's a superpower that you have. You've been able to do on the outside world. What so many people do on the inside. I'm like, how strong are you? How amazing are you? And again, it goes back to that. Okay. I'm accepting what has happened. The milk has spilled.

Okay,  now what do we do to move forward casted? And, and that's why I always say that to her. I'm like, I'm like, you're a superpower. And, um, she loves that. 

Yeah. I like that. 

It's amazing. Your son got that award. I would have been crying. I mean, 

Oh my gosh, he brought it. And of course he acted like it was no big deal. I thought. I didn't even know what it was. It wasn't until my neighbor had, um, sent me a text. She's like, Oh, my daughter, who's a few grades older. She's like, said Hunter got an award at the school assembly today. Like I thought it was just something in his classroom that his teacher gave him specifically.

And I'm like, wait, this was like in front of the whole school. And he was like, Oh, yeah, like I got to go on stage and I'm like, okay, and so it was a nice opportunity to, I couldn't help myself. I had to explain to him a little more just how resilient he is and has always been. And, going back to like seeing pictures and stuff, he's never really asked questions yet, but he has definitely seen photos and his baby photos and, you know, all the wires and everything.

And I think it'll be really interesting as they grow up to, You know, and learn to fully grasps, you know, their birth story and just everything that followed. Yeah,  a wild journey,  and I think speaking about like reframing our mindset, you know, it's such an important tool to be able to do that in any situation, whether you, you know, I relate to this so much in many different aspects of my journey,  reframing my mindset of, okay,  I'm not getting pregnant on my own.

That is not how this is working out for me. And now I'm like, IVF is going to be the way That I bring children into this world and, not feeling like, I don't know, bogged down by that, I guess I'm just thinking about how it's been so important over the years for me to reframe my mindset in multiple different ways, how my children came into this world, learning to, you know, grasp the fact that.

To grow our family.  I'm not carrying our next child. And then the preemie side of things too. There's just so many bumps in the road that can come up in not just pregnancy, but in parenthood, once you have kids, even if you had smooth sailing to build your family, um, there's always something that will come up in, in parenthood.

Yeah. And, and, you know, the truth is I, I always looked at it this way. How lucky are we? We live in a time and a place  where someone else can carry your baby. How lucky we live in a time and a place you can freeze your eggs, or, you know, do IVF so that you can have a baby years ago, they didn't have that.

If you, you know, you were just kind of doctors were kind of like, well, you can't have any children. I'm sorry. Um, so the fact that there are all these other options.  Is amazing. And families come to be in so many different ways, whether also it could be a donor egg and your and your husband's sperm or adoption or whatever the case may be. Right. Those children are still every ounce your child just the same. 

Yeah. 

And, you know, I think what the energy that you give out. Is so important, even like when you're going through IVF or. Are surrogacy, right? Because. I truly believe in like the power of positive energy and that if you are giving off positive energy, your baby or your surrogate  or your child even, right.

As they're growing older, they feed off of that just as you feed off their energy. If they're doing well, you're doing well. And conversely, right? If your child's not feeling well, you're not feeling well. So I think there's something really to that whole energy body mind shift. And  I've always been a glass half full person and this really tested me.

I have to say, I wouldn't be telling the truth if. If I didn't, but at the same time, I, I just sit there and say to myself, I'm so lucky. We have all these support services. We have all these things that, that we look out for to know how to help, to help now so that years later, someone's not going to necessarily say to us, well, if you did this when, when Jenna was four, her. 

Well, why didn't anyone tell me, right? And I implore this upon people, any question about anything.  Your child, your body your surrogate's body, whatever. Ask. 

Yeah. 

Don't Google. I'll say don't Google  

slippery slope. 

Yes, yes, yes. Um, but ask a doctor, ask an expert S or ask someone who's been through it. And, you know, again, you and I both come to the table with unique experiences. So someone who's going through IVF. Rather than even asking a doctor could ask you, someone who's been in the NICU could ask you or me about our experiences. And I think for me, someone who's been in the trenches, so to speak, who's actually had boots on the ground, that's similar to, to my own, like validates and carries that much more weight in my mind as to sit and say, well, this was my experience.

Not about to say that. It our stories are the same.  However, all these things that you're feeling or all these things that that are going through your head or what you're seeing are normal and and you know, you do have to find your people. Your people might not be the people you originally thought they would be.

Yeah, 

but that doesn't mean you won't find your people. And at the end of the day, you just want to fill your life with the people who are going to help you the most, as opposed to just dismissing any of your concerns. 

Yeah, it's definitely invaluable to connect with other people who, Can share their experiences because it is way different than a doctor or somebody else telling you.

Well, these are the statistics. This is what you can do. This is what could happen. But hearing from someone, like you said, even if it's not the exact same story, there is value in just hearing, like, personal experience,  from someone who's been through it and can understand just a glimpse of what you're going through.

And I think. In all the way that you and I have had to reframe our mindset over our journeys, I think when you're able to do that and, you know, instead of looking at like, Oh man, you know, I, I can't get pregnant naturally, or I can't believe I can't carry my own child or whatever. If you can reframe it and come from a place of, like you said, like feeling grateful, grateful that the technology exists, grateful that there's people in this world that can help other people build their families, grateful for the means to be able to do it.

You know, there's always something to be grateful for. And when you can reframe your mindset like that, I think it will open you up also to. Being a little more clear minded about maybe where there are gaps to help other people, you know, once I became grateful for what I had, I was really aware of what was lacking, you know, whether it was connecting with other moms or support between, you know, like you said, like between the NICU and going home, which I can only imagine, is How, you decided to start Flourish. Tell me a little bit about that. You know, at what point in your story were you like, this needs to be done. This needs, I need to put this out in the world.  

I, I think it was probably around like that, like I said before, like that nine month mark. Yeah. And I saw some changes in my daughter, like how she was advancing and, you know, it made me feel good to watch her and see her, you know, tackle some of those milestones. Of which I want to note that even a full term baby won't necessarily hit all the milestones. 

Yeah. 

The minute they're supposed to, and we like fixate on them, you know, all the time. But once I saw like change in her, I thought to myself, I'm like, this is so amazing. I'm like watching this and her team. That I kind of like put together, because our early intervention system, I was like, no, this isn't going to work. That's not going to work. And I kind of just  created our team who I cried at that when we had to say, you know, goodbye to, um, you know, and I'm like, these people are Are so loving and caring.

I'm like, and I'm a resourceful person. I've been able to put this together, not without blood, sweat and tears and like, but what if I could do this for somebody else so that they don't have to go through the blood, sweat and tears. 

Yeah, 

that that they could just.  call up a person or find out if,  they take insurance.  So I have all those resources broken down by what kind of therapy, um, whether they do take their states like EI or whatever the state calls it, also they do have self pay, all those kinds of things. So that while the state system. Takes itself, while to work and get all the paperwork. You can still be getting help for your child because for me In in those moments, she didn't even know know it but she fed me as opposed to me feeding her and That's just as important again, right? Seeing her thrive, then helped me thrive. And I remember saying to her OT that I'm like,  Tammy, I'm like, there's got to be something that I can do.

I said, I don't know what that is. Cause I'm still, I was still like in like the thick of it, but  I'm like, there's gotta be something that I can do to help other moms. I'm like, because not everyone either has the time or maybe it doesn't even want to. Some parents have their head in the sand, you know, I said, but if I could somehow make it easier and feel less, daunting and scary and shameful, then I've done a good thing.

And in that, then I came to that iteration of actually coaching parents, one on one and groups, but, mostly one on one and it's so rewarding actually to see their progress. It makes me feel so happy. You know, when someone says to you, thank you for helping me enjoy being a mom. And what do you say to that?

That's huge. Yeah. 

Yeah. And I'm just like, I'm like you, it's all you, you know, you had it inside you. We just had to uncover it. And that's, that's what, putting that work in is, but I mean, that's really why when I started to see her progress and realized how I then started to enjoy journey, \ that I knew I wanted to spread that feeling to other parents out there. 

That is such a cool story and  what a great feeling to know that you are helping, other parents through this especially like everything that follows, you know, having a child born premature, you know, for example, there's just so many pieces that you have to figure out while still making sure your child is thriving, like things that actually have nothing to do with their, like insurance, for example, like you said, I mean, Just because you once you check out of that hospital, I mean, there is just so much to figure out and follow.

So, to make it easier for someone is such a need. And such a great resource to be able to just, like, get them that much further.  But I think, like, you mentioned, in order to do that, you have to really come to terms with your own story and, appreciate how far you've come and realize. Everything that you've been through, I know I can relate to what you're saying and that mine was a little bit longer of a journey because I thought that you really have to process what you've been through yourself in order to help other people. And I think for me, so much kept piling on. It was everything, from. His NICU stay and having a preemie, he was my oldest. That was one piece of the puzzle. And then I had other health concerns and, being on bedrest with my second for like a month in the hospital and, um, my cervix and just, there was so many pieces that I was trying to digest. And I finally had got to a point, and it was when, you know, we had decided that  My body will is, is not going to carry a pregnancy again.

And that was like the pause that I needed to fully turn around and like, look back at everything and realize like, even all the knowledge that I have on so many different topics. And then I had that same urge to be like, how can I help somebody else not have to, I can't stop what everyone's going to go through, obviously, but. To have the education that they need to know that these things exist. And to kind of hold their hand along the way because you just have that urge to  help somebody else. 

Yeah, you just want to sit there like I tell people like I just want to sit on your shoulder or hold your hands and tell you it's it's going to be okay and what you're feeling is  totally, totally normal.

I think validation of fears, even as it relates to getting pregnant, being able to get pregnant,  I think all of those things, people really need help with, right? Because when you're little, you think, Oh, I want to get older. I want to get married. I want to have X, Y, like. 10 kids, whatever it, whatever it is, right?

And I'll say similar to you for myself, like I had health issues. Following, Jenna's pregnancy, I had help syndrome and preeclampsia. So I was sick for, for a while, like six months or so. Then being told by my OB that I could never carry again, He said, I could  if I were his own daughter, he would say no, and he would strongly advise against it.

And, and I would never do that to,  my husband,  or my daughter. And, but, you know, again, it's going through that, I'll say morning period, right. Of, I thought my family was going to be a, B or C. And it turns out it's,  So, okay, allow yourself to have those moments and know what those triggers are.

Because even once you've dealt with that, That's not to say there aren't going to be triggers. I mean, when Fred, like when friends of mine would say they were having a second and I'd be like, uh, you know,  it would just, I'm so happy for them, but in internally, right. And then there's nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with being so grateful  for your miracle yet also being sad. And I think.  People don't understand that, that they think you have to be one or the other. And  it's just not, that's just not the case. 

Not true at all. 

You have to deal with those other feelings, or else they'll just fester and fester and fester.

Yeah, and I say this all the time, but,  joy and grief. Um, and just speaking of grief in general, whether it's grieving the loss of a child, or even the loss of an idea of how you thought things were going to go, you know, grief doesn't go away.

It's always going to be there. So, like you said, knowing your triggers, this could be years down the road.  I could see somebody pregnant and it could just, you know, send me back to, you know. You know, the time that I had to grieve the idea that I would not carry a pregnancy again, or, or ever have, you know, uh, just a quote unquote, normal, full term pregnancy. It just was not in the cards for me. That's not how my family was going to go.  But it's knowing your triggers for sure, I used to think like, oh, I I'm okay. I'm I feel very,  content in this situation. Now I have. Come to grips with what our journey looks like. But it's not something you can just turn on and off. There are triggers. And again, it has nothing to do with  not being happy for anybody else. It's just something that, is in you. It's a part of who you become and that's not a bad thing. It's just something to be aware of. 

And I feel like it's healthy, actually, to have those opposing emotions and feelings, because then you're really being true and authentic.  Because even, like, even if you're just so happy, if it's something that you had always longed for or wanted, and even if you've dealt with it. That doesn't mean that somewhere, whether it's in your brain, in your gut, wherever it is, doesn't mean that it's still, it doesn't matter to you.

And it's okay that it does matter. You're human. You can be, all upbeat and happy all the time. And And it's important to process that and allow yourself that weird juxtaposition of emotions. and I think it's healthy in a weird way of saying it, but I really, really do because it allows you to feel the full gamut of emotions.

Yeah, I completely agree. It makes you human. And it, like you said, you're an authentic, genuine person by, by letting yourself feel all the things. So obviously we've talked a lot about different situations, not just having a preemie or being in the NICU we've touched on, infertility and IVF and loss, for anyone  Is put in a situation where,  you know, their plans just don't go to plan, whether it is having a premature birth or some sort of birth trauma or infertility, what would be your biggest piece of advice, to kind of shift and move forward and persevere from that moment on? Speaking from not only from your own experiences, but I know you've helped so many people. in the last five years. So what would you say to that person? 

I would say to that person, first and foremost, you're so strong. You have no idea how strong you are to get to the point where you are and to applaud themselves for wanting to actually help themselves. But I would also say is that Allow yourself some grace, give yourself space to actually fully process whether that means you need to journal or voice memo it or, you know, do something, talk to someone, get help, allow yourself to process all of those emotions, as opposed to keeping them inside, because I remember, you know, for example, friends would say but, you know, Jenna's breathing and she's living and she's doing great.

Yes, she is. But that doesn't take away my fear. My mom guilt, right? All those other things. And so I think because we live in this culture where there's a lot of toxic positivity, it kind of doesn't allow us to fully process. So I say, allow yourself to feel whatever it is. And that's perfectly fine. And it's not going to be one day. It's going to take time. Just really, really allow yourself that. And if that means like to your point before when I said morning, whatever your journey you thought was going to be, do it. I mean, that's what I did. Even I did it again about having another child.  I had to do that for myself to move forward.

So I think that grieving process and letting go of what your expectations were and how it's gone awry is really, really important because once you do that, you're kind of saying, okay, I know you exist. I know this. Was important to me and might still be important to me for a very long time. And that's okay, but I'm going to put you over here and I'm going to now walk forward. I think when you can do that, and a lot of people can't do that on their own. That's why there's people for support like you like me. When you can start to do that, then you can start to see the farce through the trees, so to speak, you can start to focus on the day to day and helping yourself, helping your family, helping your child, but you really need to process those emotions.

that is great advice. And  like you, you said, getting it all out, whether it's feelings of fear or disappointment or overwhelm, and being honest about those feelings, it doesn't mean that you love your child any less at all. I mean, those are real emotions. And when you can Process them and let them out and be honest about him. I think it'll just open you up for even more joy and clarity in your parenthood journey. It gives space for that when you can kind of get out all of the hard feelings. 

I agree, right? Because then your tank has room for all that other stuff in it. Because you're allowing it to clutter up your mind, and to your point, it's so important that, that parents know that that is not a reflection on the fact that they don't love their child or are appreciative of their child. It's about you, and your feelings, and what You thought something was going to be, but it isn't. It has nothing to do with you loving or being grateful for your child. I think that's a, such an important point. Thank you for bringing it up. 

Yeah, absolutely. I know you put so many amazing resources out into the world. I follow you on Instagram, I've seen you speaking on different topics. Where can listeners connect with you? 

They can find me on Instagram at F lr, RISH, for flourish.  They can also find us on the web, www dot flr, RIS h.com or any, social media, or they can email me. hello@flourish.com. 

Perfect. And I will, of course, link it all to make it easy. I just want to make sure people have the opportunity to connect with you because I know we have all sorts of listeners of this show, some that are probably navigating one of the things that was mentioned today. So I'm glad that they can reach out to you. , I really appreciate you being on the show with me today. I always enjoy talking with you and sharing our stories and, and getting your take on it. So thank you so much. 

Well. And thank you too, for you and all the work that you do. I think the best thing we can do is normalize. What our situations are and what we go through and you do that day in and day out and it's not easy, so I'm really appreciative of you and your work as well. And, I love following you and like, I was so happy when I saw all those pictures with the sonogram and, you know, I'm just so happy for you. And, uh, I love talking to you just the same. 

Well, thank you. And you know, I can't wait to watch us both keep putting out this knowledge that we have and sharing our stories and hopefully bringing hope to anyone who is listening to us. So thanks again. And we will talk again soon. 

Thanks for tuning in today. I know there are so many podcasts out there. So the fact that you tapped motherhood intended to listen today means the world and to take it one step further, share the show with somebody in your life, a friend, a family member, someone that came to mind during this episode, especially somebody that currently might be navigating a NICU stay, Send them the link to this episode. That way they can connect with Jody. They can feel supported and not feel alone in such an unexpected situation. 

As always, I'm here to help. However, I can never be afraid to reach out. You can send me an email, send me a DM, all the things. Find me in the Facebook community group. If you haven't joined us yet, be sure to find us on Facebook. And if you have any suggestions for resources that would be helpful for you, whether that's some sort of journal or a to do list or a short recording on a specific topic or different professionals that you would love to hear from. Send me a message. I'm in the process of creating so many helpful resources, but I want to make sure that they are what listeners need. I know the things that I've needed in times of infertility and stress and prematurity and surrogacy and just, there are so many layers to my story. So sometimes it's hard for me to focus on one specific pain point.

And then I get a little overwhelmed. So not your problem. I'm just here to say that I want to help you the listener. So send me a message. I'm here for you. I want to have the best guests on, and in the coming months, I'll be continuing to record new episodes that will come out for season four, so your feedback is always welcome. You can also just hit the fifth star and leave a review if you are enjoying this show.

That's all for today. I hope you have a great weekend and you will hear from me again next week.