Pelvic Floor Physical Therapy: What Every Woman Should Know

Pelvic Floor Health: An In-Depth Talk with Dr. Angela LeBlanc, DPT, PT

In this episode, Jacqueline welcomes her cousin Angela, a pelvic floor physical therapist, to discuss the crucial topic of pelvic floor health. Angela explains how the pelvic floor functions, debunks common myths, and highlights the importance of individualized care. They also delve into various conditions that pelvic floor therapy can help with, such as constipation, incontinence, and pain during pregnancy and postpartum. Angela shares insights on the interconnectedness of the body, the impact of stress and trauma on pelvic health, and practical advice for those considering pelvic floor therapy. This episode is packed with valuable information and tips to help listeners better understand and care for their pelvic floor health!

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EPISODE BREAKDOWN:

02:59 Introducing Today's Guest: Angela LeBlanc

03:48 Understanding Pelvic Floor Therapy

05:55 Angela's Journey and Expertise

09:37 Common Issues and Myths About Pelvic Floor

15:57 Pelvic Floor Therapy During Pregnancy

27:07 Postpartum Pelvic Floor Importance

29:09 Common Postpartum Issues and Misconceptions

32:13 Mind-Body Connection and Emotional Health

35:41 Breathwork and Core Engagement Techniques

38:14 Personalized Pelvic Floor Therapy

41:00 Holistic Approach to Pelvic Health

45:38 Evaluation and First Appointment Insights

Transcript

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 Hey, it's Jacqueline. Welcome back to another episode of Motherhood Intended. I'm super excited about today's guest, but before we get to that, I have to mention a few important things. For one, be sure to check the show notes after you're done listening to this episode. There are so many great things in there for you, including a link to download a free Habit Tracker. You can sign up for the Motherhood Intended email list. Join the Motherhood Intended community. There's also links in there to connect with me and all the guests in each episode.

And whatever is mentioned in the episode that we say, oh, I'll link it there, that's where you can find it in the show notes. So get in the habit of checking that out because it has everything you might want related to the podcast, our community, and this specific episode.

Okay, so today's guest I am super excited about. We recorded this episode in person, which I haven't really brought you behind the scenes of the podcast in a while, so let me catch you up a little bit on my studio space. I'll call it a studio space. So two years ago when I started this podcast, I literally was working like from bed in the wee hours of the night on my laptop.

Then I moved into our I'll call it the spare bedroom, which then became my husband's office, but it was also like our transitional room in the house. So  whatever we didn't know where something was going to go, we would put into that room before we figure it out.  Coming off of Christmas this year, the office, I'll call it, wow, it looked like we were hoarders.

Now the rest of the house doesn't look like that, but this room specifically got out of control. Like, this room housed Christmas gifts, seasonal clothes. I had like bins of clothes for the boys that were seasonal or that like Noah needed to grow into and it was just a hot mess.

And so if you could have seen  the conditions that I was working in, um, yeah, pretty, pretty crazy. But then again, you know, I learned from Cathy Heller how to podcast and. She started in her closet recording, like, from her phone. So  we're doing, we're doing okay, but the exciting news is, is that we have been working on setting up the office, for a dual space for my husband's workspace, and then a podcast studio.

So for Christmas I got all new equipment, we've got lights, and we've got, New microphones, and we put a couch in here, although I'm swapping it out and getting chairs. We painted, we organized, it's looking like a real studio, folks. And I did take a before photo of, like, the cluttered mess of this room that just had, like, two little desks in it.

And as soon as it's complete, I will take an after photo because I can't wait to show you. We still have to add the logo sign to the wall, some soundproofing things on the wall.  Again, I'm getting new chairs because the couch situation just isn't ideal for recording.  But yeah, once it's done, I can't wait to take you guys behind the scenes and show you.

But it was really fun because I do a lot of my recording remotely with my guests and it's only, you know, for those who are in town or who are local to me that we record in person. So it was a lot of fun to do this episode. Especially because today's guest is my cousin. 

So Angela LeBlanc is a pelvic floor therapist. She's passionate about collaborative and compassionate care to meet clients needs. She works alongside women going through pregnancy, postpartum.  menopause and infertility as well as women dealing with pelvic pain, constipation, incontinence, prolapse, and more. She strives to help women gain confidence on their unique journeys, helping them navigate challenges and discover solutions that empower them to live their fullest lives.

When I say that this episode is packed with so much knowledge and the science to back it up, I mean it. I mean, get your notes ready because this is a good one. I have the pleasure of recording two episodes with Angela, so the next couple weeks are gonna be packed with info, and you're not gonna wanna miss it.

So today we're talking about pelvic floor therapy, and everything that surrounds the pelvic floor. So much of this was new information to me, and it's something I wish I would've known going into pregnancy, it's something I wish I would've known about postpartum,  I'm embarrassed to admit that, like, I have been postpartum for about four years now, and yeah, I did not know anything about the pelvic floor.

So this is a great episode for all the women out there Who maybe are experiencing symptoms that like you think are normal, but they're not. You're going to learn that maybe what you're experiencing isn't the norm and you shouldn't have to live this way. But don't worry. This conversation with Angela is going to help you out and get you on the right path to feeling your best self. Take a listen.

 Angela, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I'm so excited to see you in person. 

I'm so excited to be here. 

Yes. As all the listeners heard in the intro,  all the amazing things that you do and who you are, but you're also my cousin. So.  Yes.  I'm just excited that you were here in person because you're in Kansas. 

Yeah. 

I'm here in Chicago.

And it just so happened that you were here for your baby shower this weekend. 

Which is wild. 

Can't wait. I know. I feel like that just,  from my, from my point of view, flew by. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

But that'll be fun and I'm glad we were able to sit down and do this in person because in person is way more fun.

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

And I feel like. It's been a long time coming. 

I know. I know. 

We've had so much to share and chat about. 

Yes. I've been following you on Instagram, and keeping up every time I see you of like what you're learning and what you're doing in the pelvic floor space, but also like with Mercier therapy now, so many questions and I've already learned so much from you. So I'm excited for listeners to join us in this conversation today. So we're going to dive in. Um, we're going to be talking about pelvic floor therapy and I've said this to you before,  I didn't even know I had a pelvic floor, like literally until, I don't know, probably within the last year, like after having children, did I not even know that I had a pelvic floor? So first tell our listeners just like a little bit about yourself and then we can talk about  what the heck is a pelvic floor? That's probably start there. 

I would love to talk about that. Men have them too. Just, just so everyone knows, but yeah, so I went to physical therapy school out in Kansas. I was always interested in pelvic floor health and women's health because I kind of loved like the intimacy of it. It's very, you know, the subjects that people talk about are things they don't like to talk about with anybody else. And so they really confide in you and so it's a lot different of a relationship than just like an outpatient orthopedic physical therapist. And so I really love that aspect of it.

so I was always interested in it and then I had my own pelvic floor issues. I had pelvic pain and constipation for years. And so I went to pelvic floor therapy, with one of my friends who is now my boss and the owner of the company I work for now, Wellcore Physical Therapy. And I learned so much. In that first appointment, just so many things that we all should know about our own bodies, but because it's such an intimate subject, nobody talks about it. And so I  helped myself so much by just some education. That I was like, everybody needs to know this. Like everybody needs.  And so then here I am a few years later and her business is growing and yeah, we're just learning so much. 

What a fun opportunity, not only to like work with a friend, but like. Full circle moment, you know, you used it for yourself and now you're helping others. And I can definitely tell that you're passionate about this just from the way that you talk about it. And I love watching all the reels and things that Wellcore and you are doing. It's so educational, but so fun. And one of my favorite parts is like, you're bringing light to a situation that is not often talked about and women don't always feel comfortable talking about that. Like you said, it is a very,  intimate situation because You know, people are struggling with all sorts of things and I'm guessing I'm not the only person out there that did not know anything about pelvic floor or anything. 

Oh yeah. 

 That's really cool that you're doing that. So pelvic floor, what do we What is it? What is it? I now know I have it, but what is a pelvic floor?  

So If you think about the pelvis, and normally in the office we have our little models, so I'll try to explain it to you without it, but, um, we've got our pelvis, and so in the front we've got our pubic bone, in the back we essentially have our spine, or our sacrum, and then on the sides we've got our hip bones, right? So it makes kind of like a little U, um, and at the bottom of our pelvis is like a bowl, and that bowl is muscles. Essentially attaching to all of those bony, bony prominences. And those muscles are pelvic floor muscles. So it's kind of like the hammock at the bottom of our body. 

Oh, okay. Yeah,  that makes sense.

And, and so those muscles are just like any other muscle in our body. They're skeletal muscles. So we have full active control over those muscles. Like we can. Contract them. We can relax them. They can be tight. They can have trigger points. They can be weak. They can be strong They're just like any other muscle in our body like our bicep or tricep. We can exercise them. 

Oh, wow 

We can stretch them relax them. They are just like any other muscle which people are like kind of astounded by because 

yeah 

You can do Muscle contractions with those muscles. So that is what the pelvic floor is now. There's a lot that goes into it 

Yeah, 

and how it responds and works with our body. But that is kind of the basis of what our pelvic floor is 

Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know that you could strengthen it and control it like that or like that you have the capability to even like move those muscles. I'm just like, Oh, they're in there. They're there. Okay. So when it comes to  the patients that you see and the different clients that come in. What would be a reason or what kind of clients do you see coming in for pelvic floor? I mean like what got you to go and did somebody like refer you or like you should see a pelvic floor therapist for that or like how did you get introduced to that? I know that you saw one but like what kind of triggered that for you?

 so honestly The constipation was what triggered it for me, which people wouldn't think like constipation, you go to a gastroenterologist, right, or your primary care doctor,  which I did. And I went to all types of doctors. I even got a colonoscopy and they weren't finding anything wrong.  And.  And it was just causing a lot of issues. And so, someone had mentioned pelvic floor therapy. And the funny thing is, I think I was actually on social media and came across my friend Bethany, who owns Wellcore, and kind of looked at this site and noticed that constipation was one of the things that she treats.

And I'm kind of like, well, I've tried everything. 

Yeah, might as well. 

And I love that this is It's a conservative measure. It's not a medication that I have to be on, because some of those medications for constipation cost a lot of money.  And it was something natural I could do for my body. And then when I did go, I learned there were a lot of other issues I actually was having that I didn't realize were issues and not normal, like pain with sex, like,  increased urgency,  when I had to urinate. Um, just all different things that also all played a role and kind of were all issues because of the same reason. 

Whoa, okay. 

And so that's kind of how I found that. But there's a lot of different things pelvic floor physical therapists can help with and a lot of different clientele that I see. Not only constipation or pelvic pain or pain with sex, but we'll see women throughout pregnancy, just because our bodies are changing a lot. And we can go into detail about what is changing. 

Yeah. 

But we'll see women postpartum too, because remember ladies, our bodies are postpartum for two years. 

Also something I didn't know until after having kids. 

Yes. So give yourself some grace there. And then we'll see women in perimenopause, menopause, just because as our hormones change, that can cause a lot of changes with our pelvis and pelvic health. And then we'll see people, with hemorrhoids, prolapse. Any kind of pelvic pain, tailbone pain, abdominal pain, even back pain, sometimes, and I don't treat men, but we do treat men at Wellcore Physical Therapy, and a lot of times they will come in for back pain,  which can be related to pelvic floor,  especially a lot of golfers that might have back pain.

I was just gonna say, I was like, maybe Josh would look into this, he has back pain,  and is a golfer. 

Yeah,  and then we'll also treat, people with infertility, and a lot, a lot of different things and we'll see people of all ages. I mean, even little kiddos  go to pelvic floor therapy, especially for constipation. But teenagers and even like the geriatric population with incontinence.  

And are these patients, being referred from doctors or are they kind of like you and are just like, oh, I came across, you know, I've tried all these things. How does that work? Because I didn't even know that, like, I told you, I was like, wait, there's pelvic floor therapist. Like, I didn't even know that was like a specialty. 

Yes. So we get clients a lot of different ways. We are out of network. 

Yeah. 

So we, don't work with insurance necessarily. So it gives us the freedom to see people for all different things and to see them, however long we need to. So our sessions are 60 to 90 minutes long. Less frequent than you would if you went to other therapies. And then we can kind of treat everything because What we'll learn is that it's we're all connected like your right scapula or shoulder pain Could be affected by your pelvic floor like it's just we have fascia in our body That's connects kind of everything together our pelvis to our ribcage to our spine so we kind of treat everything. And the cool thing about being out of network too is like if, if you came in for pelvic floor and then your ankle started bothering you, we could also treat you for that because we're physical therapists. 

Right, right. 

First at hand. So people find us a lot of different ways. We'll get referrals from OBs a lot of times or primary care doctors. But a lot of our clients find us through online searching. 

Yeah. 

Or social media.  And I think. A lot of times, pelvic floor therapy, for some reason, isn't people's first  avenue of trying to treat whatever they're going through. And a lot of the women that I've seen, it's kind of like, this is my last resort. Like, I've tried everything, I don't know what to do, like, help. And they are just willing to do whatever because they're at their last, like, strand. 

Well, I think that's why it's so awesome that you guys are sharing on social media and that we are having this conversation. Because I think a lot of it Maybe it's just a last resort just because of like a lack of knowledge because they're not knowing like how everything is connected because I Definitely didn't know that and I kind of think of it too is like I didn't start to learn about the whole body self until I think like halfway through my infertility journey and I started seeing an  acupuncturist and my chiropractor. And then she was explaining to me all the different ways that like your body is connected to how your spine, if it's out of line, how it affects this, this, and this. And I'm like, Oh my goodness. And when you're in the thick of it, or if you're newly pregnant, whatever, you're not. You're not thinking about that. You're like, this is the symptom I have and why won't it go away?  

Yeah, we love to collaborate. And this is something that I am really passionate about is I love to collaborate with other like healthcare professionals. Like I love, we've got acupuncturists we refer to, we've got dieticians in our office, chiropractors in our office, we've got, um, functional medicine doctors. We collaborate with naturopathic doctors. Like it takes a team, you know? And if I think. Yes, pelvic floor will help, but if I feel like something else will also help you, like, I want you to go see them too, because I want to be on your team. I want to advocate alongside you, not just with your pelvic floor, but your whole journey and whatever your health goals are.

Which is so cool about what you guys do because you want to talk to somebody who's going to see the big picture. Otherwise, you are. You're running around to all these different doctors putting band aids on things. 

Right. 

Really, it's like you're not addressing the whole body, the whole self.  So let's talk a little bit about, say the clients that come in for pregnancy. What are some of the things that, they're coming in for  I'm just so like intrigued by, I wish I would've known these things like going through pregnancy. 

So honestly, Pregnancy, your entire body is changing, right? Your organs are literally moving to make room for baby. Your body is creating a human, which is unbelievable. 

Yes. 

And your pelvis is starting to loosen and move to make room for baby and to help with labor and delivery. So there's so many body changes. Your rib cage expands to help fit baby. So there's so many body changes going on. Now, if it were up to me, Pregnancy

would be a diagnosis that everyone would get physical therapy for. Oh, just like standard of care. 

Right. 

Yeah. 

Because your entire body is going through this huge change. You know, not only with your muscles, but like every system is changing and hormones are affecting all of it.

And I don't think that's even taught enough to young women. Things are changing when you feel them or your OB will mention that you're, you know, monthly appointment or whatever it is, but like, you're not realizing the magnitude that your body is shifting like that. I definitely didn't know that until even it's really not even top of mind until you're like, towards the end of your pregnancy. And you're like, I feel huge things aren't right, but guess what? Your body's been prepping for that all along. 

Yes. 

Yeah. 

Yeah.  It's interesting because when you go to the OB, they'll say like, yes, that's normal, which. It's common, but not everything is necessarily normal. Like, yes, is pain common, but that's, that's not normal. Not everyone experiences pain. And so a lot of people will come in because of pain or like leakage. That's kind of what brings a lot of our pregnant clients in.  But sometimes clients will just come in to prep their bodies and know like, Hey, I really like to exercise, but I want to do it safely.

Yeah. 

How can I do it safely so that I can exercise throughout my pregnancy? Or they'll come in and say, you know, I just really want to prepare my body for labor and delivery. And I also want to prepare it as best I can for a healthy like postpartum recovery. 

Yeah. 

And so we'll go through that with them. So there's a lot of different things and different reasons why our pregnant clients will come in. But those are the main reasons. also as you grow, you know, movement gets really uncomfortable. And so we'll talk about,  certain things you can do as you move  so that you can still function on your day to day, but be a lot more comfortable.

Yeah. That's awesome. I think that was one of the first times I heard taking care of your pelvic floor and strengthening your pelvic floor  it was a fitness class for this. Fit for mom group that I'm a part of and they were talking about some sort of exercise and there was a mix of like postpartum  non pregnant moms like pregnant moms in the class and they were like, okay  protect your pelvic floor make sure you're tucking this in when you're doing this move or do this instead and I was like Wait, what?

Like, what is a pelvic floor? 

Exactly. I was like, I don't have one of those.  

Have fun, you guys. 

Yeah. This isn't, this isn't me.  And I remember thinking at the time I wasn't pregnant when I heard this. And I was like, if I were pregnant, I probably just wouldn't even do the move. Like, I just wouldn't even be like, oh, I can't do that. But really there's ways to do things safely, like you said. And, it's so true how you like came in. You know, we're introduced to pelvic floor therapy, but really just thinking that things were normal and they weren't, and it's like, unless we're talking about these things, that's your normal, right?

Like, there's so many things that I have experienced too in my life, menstrual cycles and just so many things in pregnancy that I was like, Oh, well, I thought it was normal. And it's only in hindsight that I was like, Ooh, that's not normal. 

No. 

I should've got some assistance with that.

You don't know until you talk about it. 

Right. Exactly. So I'm glad that we're talking about this today. Speaking of things, yeah, that like you don't know until you talk about it or hear about it. What are some common. Myths like, you know, people are coming in and what is the realizing like, oh, maybe this isn't normal. What are some of the things? 

Okay, so there's a lot.

Yeah. 

So first off one of the things I learned obviously I was a patient who came in for a constipation, right?  Something I learned was you're not supposed to strain when you have a bowel movement or urinate and I was mind blown 

Yeah, 

because that was your normal 

Are you telling me things are just supposed to come out? Is that what you're saying? 

You're like, hold on. 

And she was like, yeah. And I was like, Oh my gosh, mind blown. 

You're like, well, we might have some work to do that. 

Yeah. And so, and I can talk about kind of the anatomy of it too, but,  our pelvic floor, our muscles,  aren't necessarily always weak. Um, and a lot of people, especially when they're talking about pregnancy, they say do Kegels, right?

Yeah. I definitely had heard that. Yes. Yes. 

And Kegels are when you, like. Squeeze your pelvic floor muscles now Kegels aren't for everyone because not everyone has weak Lengthened pelvic floor muscles actually majority of the clients that I see Their pelvic floor muscles are too tight. They're shortened And we talk a lot about in our sessions, like, just because you're tight and shortened doesn't mean you're strong.

You know, if you think about, and I say this a lot, you think about if we hold our arm kind of at a 90 degree angle, like bend our elbow up, our little bicep muscle might get shortened or tight, but it doesn't mean it's strong. 

Right. 

We want to be strong through full range of motion, so all the way straight to all the way bent.

Okay. 

And our pelvic floor needs that full range of motion to be strong. And so a lot of times, My clients are very tight and, and weak. And so what they need to do is actually lengthen their pelvic floor and then also gain strength and gain strength, not only through our pelvic floor muscles, but connect them with our deep core muscles because it's all connected. To provide support for our pelvic floor and maintain that length. So a lot of times, like constipation, so for me, my muscles were too tight. And so how can things come out, right, of my pelvic floor, like urine and bowel, if it's too tight.

 Okay, that makes so much sense. 

Yes. 

Yeah. 

And so we need to lengthen our muscles.

Now there's a lot of different reasons why our muscles might get too tight.  Something that we go into detail on, on the pelvic floor that a lot of people don't realize is, The biggest thing is pressure management. So, managing all of the pressure in our body. If you think of our body kind of like a balloon, and everything's even, right? The balloon's full of air, it's not gonna pop, it's just right there. And we think about the top of the balloon is our diaphragm, so that's kind of like the bottom of our lungs or the top of our rib cage. Kind of like an upside down U. And the bottom of the balloon is our pelvic floor muscles, so it's like the hammock at the bottom.

Okay. 

The front of the balloon is like our core muscles, and the back of the balloon is our back muscles. Mm hmm. So, as we take a nice deep breath, and I mean like deep diaphragmatic breath, not like how we normally breathe, like short, shallow breaths in our chest, our diaphragm will come down. If you push the top of that balloon, The bottom also comes down, right?

So as our diaphragm comes down, our pelvic floor muscles lengthen. And then as we. Exhale, or bring our air out, our pelvic floor muscles come back to its resting position. And so our diaphragm and our pelvic floor works a lot together. Now, if we're taking short, shallow breaths all day long and we're in a fight or flight,  So that's kind of like our nervous system always on the go, which a lot of us do because we're always working or we're always, you know, picking up the kids or making dinner or doing whatever you need to do. We're always on the go. We're not taking that time to stop and take those deep breaths. And if we're not doing that, our pelvic floor never gets the opportunity to lengthen. Oh yeah. And if it never gets that, then it's going to stay nice and short and tight. 

I'm wondering, this is so interesting because I know when someone can be like really stressed I've heard the term like, Oh, you're internalizing your stress. And then you could get. Constipated or have issues like that. I did not know why I assume. Yeah, that makes  total sense. 

Yeah. 

Okay. 

And I mean, going along with that, our mind has so much to do with our physical. Output,  like mind body coordination is a really big thing  in all of my  patients that I see, you know, pregnancy, things are changing. It's hard to connect to that air of your body. Postpartum things are changing. It's hard to connect. But if we have stress.  And our body's in that fight or flight mode, you're right, our nervous system will be on height and everything will tense up. They say too, that like not only will we tense up our muscles, but also our pelvic floor because it's just like any other muscle. And our pelvic floor can take on anxiety and take on stress. And so they say if you're clenching your jaw, you're probably clenching your pelvic floor too. 

Ooh, and I'm a big like, clencher, um, my dentist has been like, Hmm, are you?  I was like, why does my jaw hurt?  

Yeah. 

Um, and I've even had ear pain from that. But I never thought about it. Yeah. Affecting the rest of my body. I'm like, why do I have lower back pain? Why do I have, 

yeah. 

Interesting. 

Yeah. They say our jaw and our pelvic floor. Like we're kind of embryologically formed at the same time and then as we formed into a fetus our spine kind of formed in the middle and so our pelvic floor muscles and our jaw muscles and our vaginal opening and our, vocal cords coincide with one another.

Oh, that's so interesting. 

It is so interesting. 

Cool. Okay, that makes so much sense.

 So that's why it's important to, to get kind of an individualized look, because you go to these classes and they're like, tighten your pelvic floor, Kegel and you might need the opposite.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I even learned, I think it was around the same time I learned about. Diastasis recti. 

Uh huh, yeah. 

I don't know. With your ab muscles. Again, I was like. 

Ab separation. 

No, no, no. I had, uh, C sections and stuff. None of that applies to me. Like, I know nothing. I'm like, that doesn't count. Like, I didn't. Same thing with pelvic floor. I was like, well, I didn't leave. I just was thinking, like, I don't know. I didn't labor. I had surgery. So like that doesn't apply to me. And like, the more I'm learning about how it all  connects and everything, I'm like, Oh, wow. Interesting. 

Yeah. 

I would assume too, like how you're saying with like the, um, shortened muscles and everything, someone who is experiencing,  example, like what you experience like with constipation or like a tight pelvic floor, that's something you'd want to address in pregnancy too for delivery, right?

Uh huh. Absolutely. 

Yeah. Man. 

Yeah. It's funny. I have clients who come in and I had someone who came in and was just wanting to prep for labor and delivery. And we started talking and she had pain with sex and a lot of women don't realize that that is not normal, like it's common, but it's not normal. And so we ended up treating, you know, her pelvic floor and now she doesn't have pain with sex and she's ready for labor and delivery. So it was like, she didn't even realize it was something that she needed and she did, but that's absolutely correct. 

Yeah. Oh my gosh. What a wonderful thing to know about.

Yeah. 

And then so postpartum, like going into postpartum,  well now I'm getting off track because I think we were debunking things. 

So many things. 

I just have so many questions. 

So many things. 

Okay. I'll go back to if there's anything to debunk, but well, there's a million, but I do want to know about postpartum because now we're talking about, okay, I'm thinking, you know, the stress and I'm thinking of the different symptoms and then pregnancy and now postpartum.

Yes. Okay. So postpartum, like,  What can, how can that help?  I don't even know what I'm asking. I just want to like, what next? 

What can we do for postpartum? 

Yeah. Yeah. 

So whether c section or vaginal delivery. Okay. Postpartum pelvic floor is really important. So think about, too, when you were pregnant, right, all of your organs moved, your uterus, Got huge. One of your pelvic floor muscles actually went 37 times its size. 

Whoa 

stretched 

Holy cow. Okay 

wild. Yeah, and think about your pelvic floor took on the weight of the baby. And so it took on a lot of pressure And then all of a sudden the baby's gone whether it was c section or a vaginal delivery. And with a c section, you know, you go through all of those layers to get to the uterus. So it was a lot kind of think of it like an iceberg of scar tissue. And then if you have a vaginal delivery, you know, sometimes your muscles or your perineum, which is the area right between your rectum and your vaginal opening, like kind of the skin area there, can get affected if you have any tears or anything like And so what we do with most of our postpartum women is we try to reconnect to our pelvic floor because our mind body connection is so off because so much has changed. During pregnancy, but also postpartum because you were used to the baby being there and you learned how to use your core with the baby and now the baby's not there and your organs are still coming back into place where they were. Your uterus is still shrinking.  And there's a lot going on.

And so a lot of the things we start with is just. Reconnecting with that area, that mind body connection, being aware of those muscles in your deep core, being aware of those muscles in your pelvic floor. And then we'll address  any issues, any pain, any incontinence.  So a lot of women might. Leak or it's very common, not normal to leak after you have a baby.

And I was just gonna say that like I love that you keep using that phrase like it's common, but that doesn't mean it's normal, 

right? '

cause I think so many people brush it off, they're like, well, I just pee now when I laugh. Like that's just normal. But it's not normal, but it's common, so you can strengthen that.

Yeah, and so, something to kind of debunk is like, yes, you're, not everybody should pee and you don't have to pee your pants forever after having a kid. Like, that's not something you should deal with, but incontinence  can be from different things. It can be from weakness in your pelvic floor. Yeah. It can also be from tightness, because sometimes tightness can lead to weakness, and so, um, If you have an individualized assessment to see what your muscles are doing, we can kind of figure that out because some, some women can be tight, like whether they have a lot of stitches from a tear and scar tissue in their pelvic floor muscles because of Any, vaginal delivery, like, I don't want to say injuries, but yeah, I mean, consequences, I guess, um, or you're not connecting with your muscles, you don't have that strength to kind of support your pelvic floor after a C section, or, you know, your muscles were  Guarded from holding a baby in your belly for so long and you know, our muscles are that hammock They're holding that baby there and so they're tight or they don't know how to coordinate with one another and so incontinence can be Fixed postpartum. It's not something that you have to deal with but it's also individualized So it's not just kegels that might fix that  it could be a lot of different reasons 

which is like the myth in itself because like I said, I feel like everyone's heard of do your kegels do your kegels, but like  Maybe, maybe that's not for you. It's not, there's so, yeah. That's so interesting and awesome that it's like personalized. That's, the best part because you're getting to the root cause. And as you were just talking, I was thinking about  how you said you're like, you know, during that whole time you're guarding your baby or carrying your baby and all of a sudden like you don't have. A baby in your body and your body is just supposed to like, what do you, you know, it takes time to adjust. So important to even know about your pelvic floor. I know about all this going into pregnancy because when you're postpartum too, I mean, you're not just physically recovering, but obviously you're, now you're taking care of a baby, trying to figure out how to feed your baby like emotionally and mentally, like you are postpartum.

And so the mind body connection is already going to be off because you are just your brains and all these different. Um, and I was just thinking about too for those, you know, clients who are postpartum and maybe were also like a fertility patient and then, you know, through your pregnancy,  you might be carrying your stress or your tension or, you know, differently than someone who may be.

Hasn't experienced infertility or hasn't experienced a loss. You know, I think I probably held my breath through every single pregnancy and like in hindsight, I'm sure of it. I was not even remotely like 

relaxed, 

relaxed at all, you know, cause you're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And, So postpartum, you know, in hindsight, I'm like, wow, there's a lot of work to that. I'm just doing now. I feel like years later just cause I'm learning about it. I

think the really cool part about my job is yes, I'm a physical therapist and we do physical work, but so much of our sessions is. Mental health emotions, you know, our pelvic floor carries a lot of emotions, especially if you've had trauma within your abdomen or your pelvis, whether it's sexual trauma, just emotional trauma, like physical trauma with, you know, fertility treatments, you know, or anything like that.

People can hold that. And sometimes in our appointments, they let it out. And we talk a lot about that and, you know, postpartum and pregnancy, your hormones are all over the place. And so that can also affect, your tissues of  your.  Vaginal canal and your labia and things like that. And so we have different products on hand that we give samples of or recommend just to help with that, especially if women are breastfeeding, they might be very dry, um, which can affect, you know, pain down there.

And so, we're kind of like an all encompassing people. I don't know how to say that, but there's so much that goes into it, not just physical. 

Yeah. It sounds like like when you go. To meet with you or someone else at the practice. I mean, like you're, you're getting More, I think anyone who shows up is getting more out of it than they realize, you know, you might be sent there because of incontinence or Constipation or pain or whatever and then once you realize it like I'm learning now with this mind body brain connection all of it You're gonna be able to release more than just pain, you know, you're going to it is it's emotional and it's like good for your Mental health too. I mean, it's just it's incredible how our bodies are connected like that and how they work 

yeah, it is. It's, it's amazing and it's very fulfilling, to see our patients grow and achieve their goals, you know, not only physically, but mentally and emotionally as well. 

Yeah. And I'm sure to the people you see, I whether it's a physical pain or like someone has just tried so many things, like you said, oftentimes people's first choice, you're not going. Straight to the pelvic floor, even though they should, but like straight to the pelvic floor therapist, mostly because they just don't know, I would assume. So they're already coming from a very vulnerable place of like, I just need you to help me. Let's change this kind of thing. 

I think something too that's really interesting about the pelvic floor that a lot of people don't know that's very important with pregnancy and postpartum is Our pelvic floor muscles are so smart and that they know exactly how much to contract to help stabilize our spine and our pelvis So that we don't get injured.

 and so during pregnancy though, in postpartum, because our bodies are changing so much, we lose that anticipatory control. For example, you know, if I wasn't pregnant and I went to go pick up a pencil, my pelvic floor would just contract a little bit with my core muscles to help support my body as I picked up that pencil.

But if I go to pick up, you know. a car seat with a baby in it. That's a lot heavier. It'll contract more so that when I pick up that car seat, then everything is stable and I won't get hurt. But when we're pregnant or postpartum, because our body is going through so many changes and we're losing some of that mind body control,  our pelvic floor muscles can't. anticipate. And that's why sometimes we get into pain or injury easily when we're pregnant or postpartum. 

Yeah. 

And so that's something that we talk a lot about as we help get that mind body control. But we talk a lot about using our breath to help remind the pelvic floor and our core muscles to kick in to help. Keep ourselves stable or supported. So something I'll teach some of my clients is if we, we do a lot of breath work, which is something that is people don't realize after talking about it, 

that you guys, yeah. 

And so something that we'll, we'll work on is our deep core contraction with our pelvic floor muscles. We'll talk about, As you exhale, we want to exhale through pursed lips like you're blowing out a candle, and very forcefully, when we do that, that kind of automatically kicks in our deep core and our pelvic floor, and so a lot of my pregnant postpartum women, you know, when they have pain, getting out of bed, getting off the couch, in and out of the car, squatting down to pick things up, rolling in bed, specifically, is the worst.

If you just, it's the worst. Exhale very forcefully through pursed lips like you're blowing out a candle. That can engage your core muscles and help with pain when you move. And so a lot of my postpartum women, maybe they might not have the pain and discomfort, but that helps kick in their muscles so they don't leak when they pick something up or jump.

Or things like that. And so that's kind of something that's kind of cool that we'll teach them so that they can start reminding the body, like, Hey, this is when you need to kick in and help me stabilize. And then eventually as we get that mind body coordination back, we can support our pelvic floor and it'll do it on its own.

That's a fun trick. Super cool. 

Yeah. 

Literally. I mean, and you're training your brain. So then you'll just know to kind of do that and man, the rolling in bed thing, I was just thinking about that. Like, why is that so hard? And why is it like in parentheses? 

It's so funny you said that because I literally saw like a reel on Instagram the other day, and it was like, showing a pregnant person doing all this stuff at the gym, then it's like, you think this is hard, but I can do it when I'm pregnant. And then it shows her like rolling in bed. And she's like, this is the hard part.  

It's so true. I remember that. And I remember like having like a pregnancy pill on one side and just be like, no, no, no. I just,  yeah.  

But yeah, try to try to blow out a candle as you roll. And that'll help 

everybody. I like that.

Yeah. I love that one. That helps me a lot too, so. 

Yeah, yeah. So, okay. I'm already sold on how, amazing this is. I wish I would have known it. I'm happy that anybody listening today can hopefully dive into this and use it to their benefit whether you're in pregnancy or postpartum or just, having issues that aren't normal.

It's never too late, also. 

I'm glad you said that because I was wondering, Actually, here's a question for you. This is more of a selfish one, but have you had people come in with X, Y, and Z going on and it ends up not being a pelvic floor issue or by the time you're seeing them, you're like, Oh, there are things we can work on that will help you.

Honestly, most like majority of the time it is a pelvic floor issue, but I do have some clients that it isn't all pelvic floor. Like, we do a lot of, Fascial mobility. And so fascia is essentially like a layer of tissue around our whole body, especially our abdomen. Our back kind of goes from our rib cage down to our pelvis around to our spine is embedded within our pelvic floor muscles and our core muscles. And it holds like nerves, arteries, veins, things like that. And sometimes, especially with like a C section or any.  

Yeah. 

When we have scar tissue or we have a, suture, everything's kind of pulled. All that fascia is pulled towards that scar. So think about like saran wrap, you take the middle and you kind of pinch it. Right. Everything's going to pull and stretch from the other sides. And so I've had. Some clients that have had abdominal surgeries or,  lung surgeries from whether it's cancer or a childhood,  congenital issue or something like that. And they have a ton of scar tissue around their rib cage.

Now, if you have scar tissue on your rib cage and you can't expand your rib cage and your diaphragm isn't working right, that's going to affect your pelvic floor and your pressure management. So your pelvic floor muscles might be strong or, you know, they might be good, but. The issue is the fascia above. And so we'll still work on that. 

Yeah. Um, and I mean, I've worked on people's shoulders and necks and backs and all of the above, but, usually the pelvic floor is affected because of that. 

Yeah. 

But I've seen people where it's like, you know, I guess I want to work on your pelvic floor, but your muscles actually aren't tight. It's your rib cage and your fascia and your, your core muscles that we need to focus on, not necessarily just your pelvic floor. 

See, that's my biggest, I was curious cause I've had like three abdominal surgeries and I'm kind of the person I usually, I'm just like, I'm fine. I find it's fine. There was no big deal. It was no big deal. And I have a high pain tolerance and all these things. But now that I, you know, for the last few years, I'm, I'm not trying to get pregnant. That chapter is closed for me. It's really opened my eyes to like, My body in the full picture. And I'm like, why am I keep plowing through all these things? What I been through has affected my body. And I need to get to the core. I'm learning, what affects what, you know, if I have lower back pain. Is it really my back or is it  I need to strengthen my abdominals or is it a weak pelvic floor? Is it like and so, you know, the more, you know, 

yes I just kind of love that you're you're figuring this out because especially my my mom's, you know, they're so busy Taking care of everybody else. Or even people that just have really difficult jobs Like they're so busy filling everyone else's cup that they forget to fill their own and then they realize, you know I've been living with this pain, or I've been living with this incontinence, or I've been living with this constipation, or my sex life and my marriage is terrible because I have to hold my breath the whole time and it's not intimate at all, or I've been dealing with this infertility and it's messing with my, you know, relationship and my sexual health and I'm holding it all in, and then it's causing constipation.

Everything is related and so that's why, I love that we're out of network because I'll spend up to two hours with my clients on their first appointment because I need to hear your whole story. Because something that happened to you as a kid, like if you fell out of a tree when you were eight and on your butt and you're having tailbone pain in your 40s, that could be affecting it.

That could be affecting it. And so I like to hear your whole story because it's not just your pelvic floor, it's your whole body. And your psych, like if you have a history of any sort of abuse or abdominal surgery or any, any kind of trauma, you know, it. It's all affecting it. And, and I like to tell people too, like it's never too late to heal. Even like my mom, I was a C section for my mom, what,  over 30 years ago.  And she was like, I wish I had pelvic floor therapy. And I was like, mom, you can still like work on your scar and work on, your pelvic floor. And heal and get better. It's never, it's never too late. 

So glad that you said that because that was my biggest hang up for the longest time. I'd hear bits and pieces in my mom's group about things that you know, people are working on or issues that they have or therapists they're seeing. And I'm like, it doesn't apply to me. Like I'm not even in that world anymore. Like I'm fine. I have my kids and In my mind, when I say postpartum, I'm thinking like within the year, you know, and I'm just learning now all the changes your body goes through and like you said, two years is the real postpartum, which again, I look back, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I did IVF back to back and had kids two under two. To this day I tell people, I don't suggest that I know too much about my mind and my body and your body needs to heal. 

Yeah. Yeah. And you, I mean, even your story, like. Just starting from the beginning like your emotional toll and Mental toll and physical toll and all the things your body went through and then all of these foreign things coming into your body and and medications and hormones and all the scar tissue from your surgeries or even like your egg retrieval. Like think about every time they retrieve the egg, they poke the ovary, right? That's a scar. 

Yeah, 

and so your body has been holding so much And yes, you finally met your goal of building your family, but you need to heal in so many different ways And it's okay that it takes five years after you're done starting your family, you know Yeah, it's now that you realize hey, it's time That I put effort into me or, Hey, maybe this is common, my pain or my stress, but it's time that I can start digging into it. There's so many things that we can do to help that. 

Which is just amazing.  Like you said, as women, and as moms are always filling everybody else's cup before our own. And that's when it kind of hit me, you know, once things  calmed down,  the unique experience of having a surrogate carry Lorelei gave me. You know, I wanted to feel connected to the pregnancy, but I also  took it as an opportunity to  dive in and try to be my best self for when she arrived because I'm like, okay, I'm not going through pregnancy right now, which is very strange. But like, I want to have my mind and body right for when she's here and you know, I'm 37 and with a nine month old and  I want to feel like prepared and healthy and my best self. So,  I'm glad to have this conversation with you and the more you know, the more you learn, you can take action. 

I'm guessing I'm not the only person who thinks of this when I hear the word trauma, but for so long I would think about  the trauma I'd been through being more so like the inability to get pregnant. That was like really traumatic and it's really stressful and loss and just not things going to plan. But I never really thought about it as like my. body going through trauma. I thought about it as like, okay, well, I'm successful, I had kids but every little thing like you just mentioned is trauma to your body, like premature deliveries, c sections, surgeries, And when I look back, I'm like, there's so much that is piled up.

So I'm not really, surprised, if I have things that need to be strengthened or worked on, because it's a lot and we don't realize it what is piling up over time on our bodies? 

Right. 

So that's so cool that you guys take the time and are able to take the time to talk with your clients,  and you know, get to the root cause because like you said, it could be, you know, you're a childhood injury and that's crazy.

It is crazy. 

Wow. 

So walk me through what  a typical, evaluation or first time meeting. 

Yeah. So something that's cool that we do too, is we do free 15 minute like phone consults, which I really love because pelvic floor therapy is so intimate and so people are a little hesitant to start it or go to it. So sometimes it's nice to just give us a call and be like, hey, like, is this for me? Yeah, and what can you do to help me? And so we'll talk through it with you.  And we'll talk through kind of what an appointment would look like and what, you know, a plan of care would look like for you individually.

And so that's really nice. I really like that just because I'm sure even before I knew what it was I had so many questions, you know Like a lot of people be like, well, I'm not pregnant. Do I need to go to pelvic floor? 

Yeah 

Well, yes,  everybody does. 

Yeah. Yeah

 So a lot of times we'll chat with people and then if you do book an appointment with us What your initial appointment would look like? We'd send you an intake form to fill out and so it goes through a lot of your history  So we have an idea of things, but we'll talk through that intake form in detail with you at your appointment. Like I said, we want to know the whole story. We want to take that time to know, like, what has your body been through?

What have you been through? And ask questions and kind of chat through, your history and then. We do a physical exam. And so we do do internal exams.  Most people will do a vaginal exam with so it's one gloved finger with lubrication and where we Go in vaginally and assess Your pelvic floor muscles, so there's different layers of your pelvic floor muscles, and we'll go through each layer assessing for strength tightness, trigger points, coordination, things like that of your specific muscles to get a better idea of what you are going on physically.

It's nice that you  have the call ahead of time. Cause you're getting prepared because I didn't know any of this either. And I was like, Oh, I don't know. It sounds like another exam that I don't want to put on my calendar.

Oh my gosh. Even my first, appointment, I didn't know that internal vaginal exams were a thing. And I got there, and I'm at physical therapy, right? And she's like, okay, take your pants off. And I said, excuse me, what? Yeah, 

I'm sorry. I'm here to, like, stretch and stuff. 

Yeah. Um, but it's nice to tell people that. And, like, that's how we Get an idea of what exactly is your pelvic floor doing? Like, is it tight? Is it weak? And we can also do treatment vaginally to help gain that length. You know, feel your breath and feel your muscles move with your breath and your coordination. It's really cool and interesting. Feel your tailbone mobility if you have tailbone pain or issues there. So we'll do that and then we'll look at your hips. Your low back, any areas of discomfort or pain, we'll look at your core muscles specifically. And then like we talked about, we'll definitely go through breathing and look at your breath, your use of your diaphragm, and how you can coordinate your core muscles with your pelvic floor and your diaphragm. we'll do any kind of manual therapy you might need. We do fascial mobility,  any manual therapy you may get like soft tissue massage, squash and massage.  We also do dry needling in our clinic, which all of our therapists are dry needling certified. It's included. It's not extra, um, which can help with muscle release and relaxation and strength.

And then we will usually give you some exercises or things to do at home,  especially my moms. I know, you know, y'all are busy and you don't have time to come to therapy three times a week for 30 minutes. And so that's why we have hour long sessions less often.  And as we figure out a treatment plan. We'll give you more to do at home. So we'll send you a Google doc. That's full of exercises. Any videos we'll send people, there's a yoga for constipation. That's really great. There's a meditation for constipation. That's really great. Like 

I assume there is also, when you were talking about breathwork, the first thing I thought about was  meditation. And I was like, it's like, it could all be a thing together. 

We'll send you any recommended products we think you might benefit from whether that's. a certain lube, or some of the cups we might use for manual therapy, or a pregnancy SI  belt to help with pain, like, yeah, a lot of different things. And so we'll give you all of that, support and things that you can take and do at home. That way, you don't feel like you need to come in as often, which is why I think the out of network is really great. So that's kind of what a first appointment looks like. There's a lot in one and it depends, you know, some people we talk for an hour because your history is so long and other people, we might do more manual therapy and someone else we might do more exercise. And so it really depends on what your personal needs are, but we try to include most of that in our first appointment. Whatever we don't get to, we'll do it our next one. 

That's great. I love how individualized it is. It's not like a one size fits all. 

Yeah. I think too, like with my just health history in general, I've been to a lot of different doctors for a lot of different things. And sometimes you feel like you're just a number going through a protocol.

Yeah. 

And so that's why it's so important to me to. Make these clients and patients feel like humans and listen to because  it's not just a Band Aid fix like we need to get down to the bottom of it And if I can't then I'm gonna refer you and work with other providers So us as a team can help you meet your health goals.

That's amazing. I have felt that way multiple times too, like you're just a number and it's  such a relief when you find a provider or someone who can help you and is going to treat you for you and what you have going on. I'll never forget when I switched Fertility doctors like we did all of our IUI's and medications and stuff with one doctor. And then when we were ready for a second opinion and probably going to be moving on to IVF, we switched doctors and it was in that moment I was like, Oh, this is how it should be. I don't feel like you're just like, alright, check, you did this, we're moving on to IVF now. It was like, She looked at my whole history and everything, and it was during that same time that I started getting acupuncture and chiropractic adjustments, and like I felt very seen there, and it was actually there that I learned about, Mercier therapy, and I didn't know anything about it.

I was already on this IVF track , I was loving that doctor, and,  just starting off with like acupuncture and stuff, and this was like  17, I think.  But at that point I was in a mindset of like, I will just try anything. I don't know if acupuncture works, but I'll try it. And so when she mentioned, that she was certified in Mercier therapy, I was like, no, that sounds great. She said she helped IVF patients. I was like, but you know, I just, I'm feeling really confident in this doctor. I'm just going to do this. And IVF did work for us on the first try, but like, you know, that's not everybody's story, but.

If I would have known all of this back then, oh my gosh, even just postpartum and just all the things, I would have been way better off. But I know that you are certified in Mercier  Therapy now, which is amazing. And I have so many questions about that as well. So we are going to do another episode. to dive into specifically that, and for fertility patients. 

But is there anything else you want to share about pelvic floor therapy or any advice you'd give anyone who is  listening to this episode and they're just Like me, like, Oh, cool. I have a pelvic floor. I didn't know that.  Any final words that you want to leave listeners with? 

Honestly, I would just say  Book a phone consult like talk through it and you know what you might say this might be tmi or I don't know. I don't share this with people but we hear everything and we want to hear everything and probably the more tmi it is the more important it is for us to know 

yeah 

and if you're unsure like just give us a call because we talk about poop we talk about pee we talk about sex we talk about vaginas like All day, 

all the things that aren't talked about enough. So don't be afraid. 

Yes. And so I would love to talk you through that. And even if you're like, unsure about it,  I really want people to, put themselves first and feel okay, bringing these intimate subjects up because We're there for you. 

Yeah. Yes. Thank you so much. I mean, I already feel empowered just by knowing these things about my body. So I can only imagine, what a consult and a session would do for somebody. So don't be afraid guys. Don't be afraid.  Well, Angela, thank you so much for joining me on this episode. I can't wait to dive in more about Mercier therapy and continue learning from all of your knowledge. 

Yay.

 Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Angela. Like I mentioned, her and I will be chatting next week as well, and we're going to be talking all things Mercier therapy, specifically touching on Mercier therapy for infertility patients. Now I know today's episode had so many nuggets of information. So if you didn't take notes. Check the show notes of the podcast. There are bullet points pulled out for like highlighted topics. So you can quickly go to that point in the podcast. If you want to revisit something, or maybe you want to pass the episode along to somebody who you think could really use this kind of therapy, check the show notes, it'll help you kind of navigate the episode and break everything down. As to where it's located. 

I truly believe that pelvic floor health is a topic that everybody needs to know about. Like Angela said, I think it should be standard of care through pregnancy as well. Like your body changes so much and. Just because it's common doesn't mean it's normal. That was a big takeaway for me from my conversation with her. And it's not to be forgotten. So remember that. Just because you're told it's normal, it doesn't mean it's normal. Maybe it's common, but like, for example, pain. Pain is not normal. It might be common in certain situations, but it is not normal. And you shouldn't have to live that way. So check the show notes, it includes all the contact information for WellCorePT. You can reach out to Angela, reach out to myself. We are here for you. 

And before you go, if you feel called to share your own personal story, be sure to click the link in the show notes where there is an application to apply to be a guest on the show. I would love to give you the opportunity to share your story, whether it's. A story of infertility, loss, something you've experienced in motherhood, maybe a hard diagnosis of you or your child, or maybe you have some uplifting story to share. Whatever it is, I really want to be able to give you the opportunity to do so. 

Welcoming on other women and moms to this podcast is so powerful in more ways than one. I'm telling you, it'll feel empowering for yourself and it will feel very healing to be able to express your story and share it with others.

And it's powerful for the people that you will. reach. You never know who's listening and who will resonate with your story and feel a little less alone, a little more educated. And that is something special. It's the main reason I started this podcast back in my first couple of years of infertility, I felt like I didn't have the support that I needed. I felt very alone. I felt very ashamed. And it wasn't until my miscarriages where I really started opening up, truthfully out of desperation.

And that's when I realized that I wasn't alone. There were so many other women out there experiencing some of the things that I was going through, and it felt so good to connect with them and not feel like I had to brush things under a rug or power through. because we should feel our feels. We should talk about things. We should compare notes. I mean, like we said in this episode, if you, you don't know what you don't know. I mean, like guys, I didn't even know I had a pelvic floor. Okay. Literally didn't even know I'm like three and a half years postpartum and I am just now learning about the importance of your pelvic floor. What could go wrong with it. And this is coming off of four pregnancies, three abdominal surgeries, so much trauma and all of that. And. Yeah, you best believe I'm going to be getting my pelvic floor looked at because that would make a lot of sense for some of the things that I am experiencing.

And you know what? We don't have to live this way. So don't forget you are not alone.  All right. If you're listening to this in the morning, I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day. Maybe you're listening to this at night as you relax or like pick up from the day or take 30 minutes to yourself.

Get some rest. Get some good rest. Angela and I will be back on the mic next week, and in the meantime, there will be a couple Village Chat episodes that I will be dropping as well. We're gonna keep it light. I'm welcoming on some women and some moms from my circle, and we're just chatting about different topics that come to mind, so tune in. It'll be a light distraction from your day. Hopefully it'll boost your mood and maybe give you some insight you're not alone in infertility. You're not alone in motherhood. We're in this together friends. Bye for now.